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To: topcat54
I think there is indeed a calling out of the believers to take place before the Tribulation begins. Christ used parables namely Hebrew custom parables many times which point to it. A time on earth when the Bride Groom brings forth the Bride and those who are not ready are locked out.

I also believe the Return of Christ and the Second Coming of Christ to be two significant but different events to take place. Christ calling forth the alive and the dead coming from the heavens and his physical return on earth just that to happen later.

Several things point to Rapture. One being the Tribulation and Great Tribulation itself. The Bible clearly states when Israel makes the 7 year agreement with the antichrist the days can be counted literally as do the day of Christ Second Coming. Yet no one knows when. True no one will know because only the unbelievers will be on earth. They know not the time.

Next is Revelations Chapter 4. Note the passages

1Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” 2And instantly I was in the Spirit,£ and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it! 3The one sitting on the throne was as brilliant as gemstones—jasper and carnelian. And the glow of an emerald circled his throne like a rainbow. 4Twenty-four thrones surrounded him, and twenty-four elders sat on them. They were all clothed in white and had gold crowns on their heads.

Robed in white and crowned. Their judgment has passed and they have been rewarded and are seated as the Elders. The dead in spirit die and their soul enters into eternity of hell. The dead in Christ and living spirits enter heaven upon earthly body death. Even though all will give account for their life here on earth believers do not face the judgment of the unbeliever. That is why Christ spoke to Elijah and Moses for they like Christ are alive in heaven. Chapter 5 after the Elders are sitting is when the Tribulations will come.

As well other verse point to a calling out. GOD called out Noah before he passed judgment on man and the floods came. Noah was saved. GOD called out Israel before passing judgment upon Egypt. Israel was saved. GOD called out Jesus from Judea into Egypt before the children were killed. Christ did not perish. Christ will call out the church before judgment upon this world. These understandings have been sealed up as told in Daniel. There were not to be understood until they needed to be understood. The End Times. It doesn't say we are never to know them but they are to be sealed until GOD's chosen time to reveal them.

Here is more evidence. To understand the scriptures meaning Paul is not talking about the blast mentioned in Revelations but rather the traditional Hebrew wedding custom of a first and last trumpet blast. One announces the engagement the other announces the wedding begins now. Bring forth the Bride the Father has spoken.

1 Corinthians 15:51 But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. 52It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died£ will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die.

That blast is the end. At that blast it is too late. The Bride Groom has arrived and taken in his bride for the feast the doors have been closed. No one knows what hour. No one but the Father. The dead in Christ and the believers living at that time on earth will be called out before judgment.

But the most revealing scripture on this issue is spoken by Christ himself and HIS description of the End Times before the Tribulation.

Luke Ch17 Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God isn’t ushered in with visible signs.£ 21You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you.”£

22Later he talked again about this with his disciples. “The time is coming when you will long to share in the days of the Son of Man, but you won’t be able to,” he said. 23“Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don’t believe such reports or go out to look for him. 24For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky. 25But first the Son of Man must suffer terribly£ and be rejected by this generation.

26“When the Son of Man returns, the world will be like the people were in Noah’s day. 27In those days before the flood, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came to destroy them all.

28“And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot. People went about their daily business—eating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and building—29until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and burning sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Yes, it will be ‘business as usual’ right up to the hour when the Son of Man returns.£ 31On that day a person outside the house£ must not go into the house to pack. A person in the field must not return to town. 32Remember what happened to Lot’s wife! 33Whoever clings to this life will lose it, and whoever loses this life will save it. 34That night two people will be asleep in one bed; one will be taken away, and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding flour together at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.”£

37“Lord, where will this happen?” the disciples asked. Jesus replied, “Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.”£

Christ himself tells us what is to come. He calls out his Bride, his sheep, his children BEFORE the Tribulation begins. How can we know? God told Noah to get in the Ark and GOD sealed the door Himself. GOD made certain Lot was safe as well. He was called out to safety. When the Tribulation and Great Tribulation is happening on earth there will be no mistaking it. The descriptions are horrors of horrors. Not days for feast, weddings, and parties.

I believe our GOD who did all of this will save us and keep us safe as well.

Am I right in this or wrong it simply doesn't matter. If GOD puts us through the Tribulation so shall it be as the 3 Hebrews in the firey furnace. But scripture does point to a calling out in several places and is quite clear about it.

104 posted on 04/02/2007 8:14:02 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Kool Aid! The popular American favorite drink now Made In Mexico. Pro-Open Borders? Drink Up!)
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To: cva66snipe
Christ himself tells us what is to come. He calls out his Bride, his sheep, his children BEFORE the Tribulation begins

No where does Jesus say this.

I also believe the Return of Christ and the Second Coming of Christ to be two significant but different events to take place.

This, as your other beliefs, are simply that, beliefs with no scriptural foundation. Dispensationalist schemes aren't scripture.

Am I right in this or wrong it simply doesn't matter. If GOD puts us through the Tribulation so shall it be as the 3 Hebrews in the firey furnace.

Yeah, it does matter. The Chinese Christians who believed they'd be delivered from the Communists stayed behind and got slaughtered. Those who took seriously the warning of Jesus that they should take off when they see the trouble coming escaped. If you think the alternative to getting scooped out of time in a cosmic rapture to escape trouble is to be protected from any harm during the trouble is to ignore scripture. This isn't the lesson of Revelation or of Hebrews or of many, many believers throughout the past several thousand years since Abraham received his call to follow God to a land he would show him.
122 posted on 04/02/2007 10:02:00 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: cva66snipe

Outstanding points.

In Titus 2:13, “Waiting with keen anticipation for that blessed hope (the Rapture) even the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”,...we wait with patience, by continually thinking Bible doctrine in our stream of consciousness.


126 posted on 04/02/2007 10:24:27 PM PDT by Cvengr
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