I just ordered the below, should be good background music while reading your offerings!
Posted on 01/23/2007 12:35:28 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
BEFORE THE REFORMATION
It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation. They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination and perhaps also that of God's absolute Foreknowledge. They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a co-operation between grace and free will. It was hard for man to give up the idea that he could work out his own salvation. But at last, as a result of a long, slow process, he came to the great truth that salvation is a sovereign gift which has been bestowed irrespective of merit; that it was fixed in eternity; and that God is the author in all of its stages. This cardinal truth of Christianity was first clearly seen by Augustine, the great Spirit-filled theologian of the West. In his doctrines of sin and grace, he went far beyond the earlier theologians, taught an unconditional election of grace, and restricted the purposes of redemption to the definite circle of the elect. It will not be denied by anyone acquainted with Church History that Augustine was an eminently great and good man, and that his labors and writings contributed more to the promotion of sound doctrine and the revival of true religion than did those of any other man between Paul and Luther.
Prior to Augustine's day the time had been largely taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Consequently but little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine. And that the doctrine of Predestination received such little attention in this age was no doubt partly due to the tendency to confuse it with the Pagan doctrine of Fatalism which was so prevalent throughout the Roman Empire. But in the fourth century a more settled time had been reached, a new era in theology had dawned, and the theologians came to place more emphasis on the doctrinal content of their message. Augustine was led to develop his doctrines of sin and grace partly through his own personal experience in being converted to Christianity from a worldly life, and partly through the necessity of refuting the teaching of Pelagius, who taught that man in his natural state had full ability to work out his own salvation, that Adam's fall had but little effect on the race except that it set a bad example which is perpetuated, that Christ's life is of value to men mainly by way of example, that in His death Christ was little more than the first Christian martyr, and that we are not under any special providence of God. Against these views Augustine developed the very opposite. He taught that the whole race fell in Adam, that all men by nature are depraved and spiritually dead, that the will is free to sin but not free to do good toward God, that Christ suffered vicariously for His people, that God elects whom He will irrespective of their merits, and that saving grace is efficaciously applied to the elect by the Holy Spirit. He thus became the first true interpreter of Paul and was successful in securing the acceptance of his doctrine by the Church.
Following Augustine there was retrogression rather than progress. Clouds of ignorance blinded the people. The Church became more and more ritualistic and salvation was thought to be through the external Church. The system of merit grew until it reached its climax in the "indulgences." The papacy came to exert great power, political as well as ecclesiastical, and throughout Catholic Europe the state of morals came to be almost intolerable. Even the priesthood became desperately corrupt and in the whole catalogue of human sins and vices none are more corrupt or more offensive than those which soiled the lives of such popes as John XXIII and Alexander VI.
From the time of Augustine until the time of the Reformation very little emphasis was placed on the doctrine of Predestination. We shall mention only two names from this period: Gottschalk, who was imprisoned and condemned for teaching Predestination; and Wycliffe, "The Morning Star of the Reformation," who lived in England. Wycliffe was a reformer of the Calvinistic type, proclaiming the absolute sovereignty of God and the Foreordination of all things. His system of belief was very similar to that which was later taught by Luther and Calvin. The Waldensians also might be mentioned for they were in a sense "Calvinists" before the Reformation, one of their tenets being that of Predestination.
As one of God's faithful recently wrote, it is good to declare "a call to arms, a call to not lay down, to not cede Church History" or any history, for that matter. We kneel to none but Christ.
This chapter has been broken down into short sub-headings which I'll try to post as often as possible. It's a terrific study of the roots of our United States, founded on Godly principles and righteous goals.
Here's an excellent short bio on Boettner...
I just ordered the below, should be good background music while reading your offerings!
*Now, I understand why the man who thought science was evil, Jean Cauvin, would try and steal our great Catholic Saint and claim him as some sort of crypto-calvinist, but, it is just silly. I mean, I thought it was all about sola scriptura not trying to fool others into thinking a Catholic invented Calvinistic ideology.
I really wonder WHY those who do follow Calvin put up with the lies he told them.
I mean, I used to live in New England and not one Red Sox Fan worth his salt would tolerate a Red Sox Media Guide publishing a photo of Yogi Berra with the caption, "Greatest Red Sox Cather of All Time."
But, hey, that is just New Englanders...:)
*OK, Lorraine. I'll take you at your word. I'll post some quotezs by the Great Catholic Saint
AUGUSTINE ON AUTHORITY OF CATHOLIC CHURCH
I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel me.
AUGUSTINE ON BEING IN UNION WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
"Whosoever shall have separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how praiseworthy such a person may fancy his life has been, yet for that one crime of having cut himself off from the unity of Christ he shall not have eternal life, but the wrath of God shall abide with him for ever."
*OOPS I'll bet ol' Lorraine and Jean left that one out of their writings :)
AUGUSTINE: CATHOLIC CHURCH IS AN AUTHORITATIVE CHURCH
The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saintsÂ?. When, then, we see so much help on GodÂ?s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the apostolic chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority
SALVATION ONLY THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
A man cannot have salvation, except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church he can have everything except salvation. He can have honor, he can have Sacraments, he can sing alleluia, he can answer amen, he can possess the gospel, he can have and preach faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; but never except in the Catholic Church will he be able to find salvation.
*OOPS...I KNOW why Ol' Lorraine and Jean ommitted that one :)
AUGUSTINE URGES CHRISTIANS TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD (ONLY FOR THOSE STILL IN PURGATORY (NOT YET PURGED OF ALL SINS), BUT NOT TO PRAY FOR MARTYRS WHO ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN)
there is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God (17), where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended.
AUGUSTINE on the CATHOLIC CHURCH AS THE TRUE CHURCH:
We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church; for heretics and schismatics call their own congregations churches
AUGUSTINE ON SUCCESSION
The succession of priests, from the very see of the Apostle Peter, to whom our Lord, after His resurrection, gave the charge of feeding His sheep, up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And at last, the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all the heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets (2), none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house
AUGUSTINE on REAL PRESENCE
For it was the Body of the Lord and the Blood of the Lord even in those to whom the Apostle said: Whoever eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself
AUGUSTINE on APOSTOLIC TRADITION
What the universal Church holds, not as instituted by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority.
AUGUSTINE: BAPTISM AND EUCHARIST NECESSARY FOR SALVATION
It is an excellent thing that the Punic Christians (8) call Baptism itself nothing else but salvation, and the Sacrament of Christ's Body nothing else but life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ, hold inherently that without Baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too.
*HHHHmp...I guess that too was ommitted :)
AUGUSTINE on BAPTISM AS REGENERATIVE
If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this?The Sacrament of Baptism is most assuredly the Sacrament of regeneration. But just as the man who never lived cannot die, and one who has not died cannot rise again, so too one who was never born cannot be reborn..Unless we voluntarily depart from the rule of the Christian faith it must be admitted that inasmuch as infants are, by the Sacrament of Baptism, conformed to the death of Christ, they are also freed from the serpent's venomous bite. This bite, however, they did not receive in their own proper life, but in him who first suffered that wound. 412) AUGUSTINE SAYS TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD IN PURGATORY, BUT NOT THE DEAD IN HEAVEN OR HELL
The prayer either of the Church herself or of pious individuals is heard on behalf of certain of the dead; but it is heard for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not for the rest of their life in the body do such wickedness that they might be judged unworthy of such mercy, nor who yet lived so well that it might be supposed they have no need of such mercy.
AUGUSTINE SAYS MARY NEVER SINNED
Having excepted the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins, - for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear Him in whom there was no sin-
AUGUSTINE: PUNISHMENT FOR OUR SINS NOT COMPLETED WHEN WE DIE, WILL BE COMPLETED AFTER WE DIE BUT BEFORE JUDGMENT DAY (IE, PURGATORY)
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment (35). But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment.
AUGUSTINE ON PURGATORY
That there should be some such fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, -through a certain purgatorial fire.
AUGUSTINE: PRAYING FOR THE DEAD IS USEFUL, AS LONG AS THE DEAD PERSON IS NOT IN HELL OR HEAVEN
The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. [110] Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive. When the Sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for them, or when alms are given in the church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterwards be able to be helped by these things. For there is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicket that these helps are of no avail after death. There is indeed, a manner of living so good that these helps are not needed, and again a manner so evil that these helps are of no avail, once a man has passed from this life.
AUGUSTINE SAYS PRAYING FOR THE DEAD IS A UNIVERSAL TEACHING OF THE CHURCH
We read in the books of the Maccabees that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the universal Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, wherein the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at His altar the commendation of the dead has its place.
*Huh...Scripture and Tradition and Church...
AUGUSTINE SAYS YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION (i.e. CAN LOSE JUSTIFYING GRACE)
But if someone already regenerate and justified should, of his own will, relapse into his evil life, certainly that man cannot say: "I have not received"; because he lost the grace he received from God and by his own free choice went to evil.
*Huh...Iamtold just the oposite in here...go figure :)
AUGUSTINE ON APOSTOLIC TRADITION
"Those which we keep, not as being written, but as from, if observed by the whole of Christendom, are thereby understood to be committed to us by the apostles themselves or plenary Councils, and to be retained as instituted."
* That should do it for awhile. Augustine was not psychotic. He did not think science was evil like Jean Cauvin did. Augustine did not hold the dark Doctrines of Cauvin.
I have plenty of more quotes standing by. Just make a request :)
And please, pretty please, get your own saints and stop trying to steal Catholic ones.
It's Loraine. He's a guy.
As to Augustine, he got some things more right than others. But you're reading way too much into the quotes you've offered which seldom support the extra-Biblical conclusions you draw.
But thanks for the words of Augustine, who was born in 354 and died in 430, long before so much of the debilitating, anti-Scriptural, unGodly errors of Rome permeated the church of God on earth and set themselves in stone.
Too bad New England won't get a chance to lose against the Bears.
Now, I understand why the man who thought science was evil, Jean Cauvin, would try and steal our great Catholic Saint and claim him as some sort of crypto-calvinist, but, it is just silly. I mean, I thought it was all about sola scriptura not trying to fool others into thinking a Catholic invented Calvinistic ideology.
Truth will out.
them new englanders lisp a bit....eh ? LOL
I think Michael had his nephew baptised as a Catholic.
"them new englanders lisp a bit....eh"
Watch it there. That's Massachusetts and it's funny definition of family, not Connecticut. But hey, I hear New York will be lisping with its new Governor.
I noticed the capital C in all the times you have mentioned catholic in your response. Was that in the original text?
Did Augustine write in Latin or Greek? How many of the originals of Augustine's works do we have to study, or are all of them copies from the Arabic and Medieval scholars? If they are all copies, how early are the copies and how much can we trust the scholars who copied them not to put in their interpretations? Does the Roman Catholic Church hold that any of these works are inspired? Are there any official interpretations of these writings?
Just ignorant and wanting to know.
"The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation."
Typical. Ignore the Church fathers you don't like, take part of what you do like (Augustine) shake it all together and instant new church.
Tertullian got it right in "Against Heretics."
This is the answer to bornacatholic's post!?
Does the examination of St Augustine's writings vis-a-vis Calvinism not merit a serious response or were you speaking 'ex cathedra'?
Seriously, this is your thread and I'm interested to learn how these points are met. You've been given quite a few quotes with which to deal. How about discussing a few of the more obvious problematic ones.
In his doctrines of sin and grace, he went far beyond the earlier theologians, taught an unconditional election of grace, and restricted the purposes of redemption to the definite circle of the elect.
He taught that the whole race fell in Adam, that all men by nature are depraved and spiritually dead, that the will is free to sin but not free to do good toward God, that Christ suffered vicariously for His people, that God elects whom He will irrespective of their merits, and that saving grace is efficaciously applied to the elect by the Holy Spirit.
These are not claims about God, but about St Augustine. You've made a claim. But if you wish more than to preach to the choir, defend it in the face of counter-examples. And please, please defend against the counter-examples, as a 'cut and paste' of more quotes that don't speak to the above quotes would serve only to argue posthumously for his committal.
And look what happened.
If once can get past Sophia nearly destroying her father's movie, GFIII is a fascinating story. The juxtaposition of the baby's baptism with the evil that is going on around and within the church is the sum of the entire film.
LOL
Psychoanalysis is the response now?
What is more interesting is the Roman Church...
Yes, this does seem to be the claim of the author. Restating it does not do much to help defend it though.
If all the applicable quotes are Augustine's erroneous eccentricities in some minor doctrines, then please at least defend this new claim. Or help explain the original claim. I'm interested in both.
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