Posted on 10/27/2006 5:23:02 PM PDT by sionnsar
Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams - hosting a discussion that affirmed the Episcopal Church's commitment to the shared ministries of the Anglican Communion -- welcomed Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold and Presiding Bishop-elect Katharine Jefferts Schori to Lambeth Palace October 27 for a 90-minute meeting described as a "cordial and collegial" exchange.
The morning visit, requested by Griswold last spring, provided the Presiding Bishop the opportunity to introduce his successor to the Archbishop in the week preceding the November 1 start of the nine-year tenure to which she was elected June 18.
"I was pleased to see the warmth of cordial interaction between the Archbishop and the Presiding Bishop-elect," Griswold said after the meeting, where the three shared private conversations for which no observers were present.
Jefferts Schori stated her appreciation for the "frank conversation about challenges in the Communion," and for "the opportunity to meet together face to face and begin a relationship that we hope will be fruitful and collegial."
Griswold stressed the importance of relational collaboration, noting that "at the heart of communion is found the reality of incarnation."
Williams greeted Griswold and Jefferts Schori in the State Room of Lambeth Palace, the Archbishop's official London residence since the year 1197. After their meeting in the Archbishop's office, Williams accompanied his guests downstairs into the palace grounds prior to their departure.
Lambeth Palace also announced that England's Bishop of Lincoln, the Rt. Rev. John Saxbee, will represent the Archbishop of Canterbury in Washington D.C. at Jefferts Schori's November 4 investiture as the Episcopal Church's 26th Presiding Bishop and Primate. The Anglican Communion's Secretary General, the Rev. Canon Kenneth Kearon, will also attend the liturgy, set for the Washington National Cathedral.
After departing Lambeth Palace, Griswold and Jefferts Schori joined the congregation for a noontime Eucharist at nearby St. Matthew's Church, Westminster. In an unexpected moment, Ephesians 4:1-6 was read as one of the day's scripture lessons, significant because the passage is also scheduled to be read at Jefferts Schori's upcoming investiture.
The Presiding Bishop and Presiding Bishop-elect later visited Westminster Abbey to join the congregation for Evensong.
Jefferts Schori officially concluded on October 25 more than five years of ministry as bishop of the Diocese of Nevada. The House of Bishops elected her 26th Presiding Bishop during the 75th General Convention's nine-day meeting in Columbus, Ohio. The House of Deputies affirmed the vote the same day.
-- Canon Robert Williams, director of communication for the Episcopal Church, is travelling with the Presiding Bishop and Presiding Bishop-elect in London.
Heresiarchs all. Looks like the Archdruid has made his choice.
Williams has made some very strong statements against homosexual clergy--and evangelical Anglican scholars I know call him orthodox, and definitely not revisionist, or heretic.
This meeting was a formality--not a sign of aproval.
It's definitely an open question whether TEC will be seated at Lambeth in 2 years as well, a major step toward being thrown out of the Anglican Communion.
You insult millions of biblically orthodox Anglicans all over the world...the vast majority, actually, of earth's 3rd largest Christian denomination, by flippantly calling the Archbishop heretical.
Is he still a druid?
"This meeting was a formality--not a sign of aproval."
and
"You insult millions of biblically orthodox Anglicans all over the world...the vast majority, actually, of earth's 3rd largest Christian denomination, by flippantly calling the Archbishop heretical."
There's nothing flippant about condemning those who commune with hierarchs who preach vile and soul destroying heresy in the Church.
"He that saith not Anathema to those in heresy, let him be anathema" 7th Ecumenical Council.
Must be another reason why Anglicans don't have communion with those who pray to and bow down before and worship images (called icons), in open violation of the 2nd Commandment, and have for centuries--calling that "orthodox."
If you're not Anglican--or at least Protestant, you really shouldn't be commenting on an Anglican thread.
"Must be another reason why Anglicans don't have communion with those who pray to and bow down before and worship images (called icons), in open violation of the 2nd Commandment, and have for centuries--calling that "orthodox.""
I did realize, or at least suspect, that TEC had gone iconoclast;I didn't realize that Anglicanism in general had. Someone must have forgotten to remove those two beautiful icons in the narthex of Westminster Cathedral.
"If you're not Anglican--or at least Protestant, you really shouldn't be commenting on an Anglican thread."
Really? I'd have thought sionnsar would have told me to get lost a couple of years back were that true. In any case, since Anglicanism proclaims itself the preservers of Orthodox Catholicism in the West (and I think to a great extent it was), I should think that someone who is Greek Orthodox would be in a particularly good position to comment, especially when it comes to the embrace of ancient heresies with which we of course have so much experience or alternatively to remark upon such innovations as receiving those who would proclaim that "the Holy Spirit is doing a new thing". As for the ABC, well he claims to be within the Apostolic Succession yet is reputed to be connected with druidism and refuses to follow the canons in dealing with heretical bishops, unlike many, indeed apparently most other Anglican bishops outside the First World. Some of the Fathers say he is, therefore, an enemy of God. Heretical bishops were not uncommon in The Church. +John Chrysostomos says that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. If Anglicanism claims to be a "particular church" within The Church, to use +BXVI's formula, then you've got to be ready to deal with out and out heresy and heresiarcs. If, on the other hand, Anglicanism claims merely to be a Protestant "ecclesial assembly", well then you're absolutely right. Heresy there is neither a surprise nor really any of Orthodoxy's business.
[4:1] As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. [2] Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. [3] Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. [4] There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- [5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism; [6] one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Once again, the New World Order feminazi heretic Katharine Jefferts-Schori is using the bogus liberal-protestant theory of church "unity" to cover her coming misrule and her many, many heresies.
Christian unity is about unity of FAITH (Ephesians 4:5), NOT just "unity" of a denominational organization that celebrates "diversity" of beliefs. (The ELCA's Mark Hanson should also take note.)
And the last TEC/ECUSA convention that elected Jefferts-Schori could not even agree on calling Jesus "Lord"!!!! (Ephesians 4:5). Lastly, Jefferts-Schori celebrates a god whom she sometimes calls "mother", not God the Father. (Ephesians 5:6).
There have been at least several evil things that have happened in modern history on November 4--most notably the taking of the American hostages in Iran in 1979. The "consecration" of the pseudo-bishop Katharine Jefforts-Schori in the perhaps already desecrated (e.g., remember Khatami's recent appearance there) National Cathedral looks like it will be another one!!
And not all Anglicans--or Lutherans--are protestants! Some of them are Anglo-Catholics and evangelical catholics. For the record, I am an Orthodox-oriented evangelical catholic Lutheran who attends a Serbian Orthodox church about once a month. Yes, I venerate icons. And I believe that Lutherans and Anglicans need to take the lead in recovering the Orthodoxy of the West!!!!
And there were two icons (one of the Lord and one of the Theotokos) behnd the altar in the Lutheran church I was in this morning!!!!
"Once again, the New World Order feminazi heretic Katharine Jefferts-Schori is using the bogus liberal-protestant theory of church "unity" to cover her coming misrule and her many, many heresies."
"But as for those who...severe themselves from communion with their president, that is, because he publicly preaches heresy and with bared head teaches it in the Church, such persons are not only not subject to canonical penalty..., but are worthy of due honor mong the Orthodox. For not bishops, but false bishops and false teachers have they condemned, and they have not fragmented the Church's unity with schism, but from schisms and divisions have they earnestly sought to deliver the Church." Canon XV of the First-Second Council of Constantinople
"And not all Anglicans--or Lutherans--are protestants! Some of them are Anglo-Catholics and evangelical catholics... Yes, I venerate icons. And I believe that Lutherans and Anglicans need to take the lead in recovering the Orthodoxy of the West!!!!"
Indeed. This is something I learned here on FR and for which I am very grateful.
As Luther clearly said, councils are not infallible, even ecumenical ones, and they have erred.
If the 7th ecumenical council recommends behavior which contradicts:
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image... you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."
(Exodus 20:4,5)(The 2nd Commandment)
Taking images and bowing down to them, which is a description of icon veneration, would clearly seem to contradict what is prohibited in this command.
When it comes to an ecumenical council or what some Anglicans or Lutherans or Eastern churches practice, God's word, I will stay with Holy Scipture, thanks. The ancient Greek iconoclasts were right...to follow scipture.
When opposing the homosexual churchmen who pervert the scipture, basing our arguments on the solid ground of scripture, its not advisable to compromise in the name of councils or tradition on other issues.
On the name "Protestant." This history of this word is that it was simply a slur given to the princes who in support of Luthernism, protested of their treatment of to the emporer Charles V.
The original word taken by Luther and his followers is "evangelical," reflected still in the German Lutheran (Evangelisch) churches.
I can't say I have much time though for Lutherans or Anglicans who don't proudly take on the word "Protestant" however. If you don't believe in salvation by faith alone--(which never of course comes alone, always bringing with it good works!) I have no idea why you'd want to be associated with groups who formed the Protestant Reformation.
K and I have had discussion (and I'd like to remind him of this) over the past couple of years about the very slow pace at which things move in the Anglican world and never without lots of talk. It is one of the things that differentiates us from the Orthodox who, unhampered by our heritage, are able to react swiftly.
AR, that the Orthodox worship the icons themselves is something new to me. But I see Honorary Serb is addressing that and hope he'll say more.
But as regards insulting the world-wide Anglican Communion (wwAC) by declaring the Archbishop of Canterbury a heretic, I don't think it does. I will note that my ping list predecessor had some quite harsh words to say about the AoC, and even my own bishop has echoed PAR35's remark.
I personally wish the whole thing had been over and concluded many years ago (like maybe about the time I left ECUSA). But it isn't, and so I prefer to emulate the Anglican Global South bishops and not rush to judgement -- we don't know the end of this situation.
Our (Anglican) rector has been delivering an excellent series of sermons on the Decalogue. I'd like to aim you all at his sermon on the Second Commandment (series to date here), in which he takes a bit of a different view.
Only to one incapable of understanding the difference between a idol that is worship and an icon which is venerated. To the rest of us, there is no contraction with the commandment at all.
That artwork was the two cherubim that point to an apparently empty space between them. That empty space represented the Presence and Glory of God. All this was even before the Incarnation, which is the main reason for the validity and perhaps even necessity of icons in the Seventh Ecumencial Council and elsewhere.
Morover, unlike Western religious art (even in some Lutheran churches), Orthodox icons are NOT carved images, which Orthodox cannons forbid. Nor are they realistic. Orthodox faithful worship WITH icons, they do not worship icons. Any visit to a Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox church, with its repeated ascription of worship and glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit alone, would verify that!
And a BIG problem with "mainline" mis-leaders is that they downgrade the use of God's Holy Name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you were a part of such a "mainline" denomination, and visited an Orthodox church, you might wish for a more Orthodox form of worship, icons and all!
Finally, Luther OPPOSED the iconoclasts of his day, which is why Lutheran churches have more art in them (even statues) than Reformed churches, and why some of us have returned to icons. And the original iconoclasts were more influenced by islam than by holy scripture.
I'm not sure I follow you here...
Can you explain the difference? It's not clear to all of us non-Orthodox. To quote Wikipedia: "In some other religious traditions such as Judaism, Islam and Protestantism, veneration is considered to amount to the heresy of idolatry"
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