Posted on 10/27/2006 5:23:02 PM PDT by sionnsar
Yes, Luther was bitterly opposed to (and deeply distressed by) the excesses of Karlstadt and his ilk. The whitewashed plain New England meeting house is the legacy of Zwingli and Calvin, not Luther.
Knowledge of The Faith, as taught by The Fathers and as expressed by the Ecumenical Councils allows one to determine if one really is a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Iconoclasm is an ancient heresy which was in some senses a result of Monophysitism in that it rejects the body. In other ways it was a result of Mohammedanism. It was pretty well stamped out among Christians until perhaps a generation after Luther when it bagan to gain ground in the West, though not in the East. Interestingly, some Mohammedan sects, especially in the area of Syria/Jordan/Palestine, have a great devotion to icons of the Theotokos. Perhaps these quotes from the proclamations of the 7th Ecumenical Council, which I always thought Anglicanism accepted, though now I begin to wonder, will help.
"We define that the holy icons, whether in color, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honor (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature, ... which is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands."
And from the Synodikon of the 7th Ecumenical Council, which we all read in unison on the Great Feast of the Triumph of Orthodoxy:
As the Prophets beheld,
As the Apostles taught,
As the Church received,
As the Teachers dogmatized,
As the Universe agreed,
As Grace illumined,
As the Truth revealed,
As falsehood passed away,
As Wisdom presented,
As Christ awarded,
Thus we declare,
Thus we assert,
Thus we proclaim Christ our true God
and honor His saints,
In words,
In writings,
In thoughts,
In sacrifices,
In churches,
In holy icons.
On the one hand, worshipping and reverencing Christ as God and Lord.
And on the other hand, honoring and venerating His Saints as true servants of the same Lord.
This is the Faith of the Apostles.
This is the Faith of the Fathers.
This is the Faith of the Orthodox.
This is the Faith which has established the Universe.
"The whitewashed plain New England meeting house is the legacy of Zwingli and Calvin, not Luther."
Reminds me of the time, more than 20 years ago, when She Who Must Be Obeyed and I took the boys, aged about 2.5 and 5 to the wedding of one of her nieces in a small white washed very plain Congregational church in the woods. Both boys had been in church virtually every Sunday of their lives since their baptisms and should have known how to act but the little one kept squirming and the older one looked very puzzled. After a few minutes he leaned over to me and asked where the altar was. There wasn't one and I told him that apparently they didn't use one here. After a minute or two of looking around, he whispered, "Where are the icons?" I told him they didn't use them. At that point, in a very loud voice he exclaimed, "They don't use icons? Daddy, are you sure this is a church?"
I've calmed down. Just for the record, I'm not an iconoclast who thinks images in church are sinful. I take the moderate position of the vast majority of non-Roman Catholic, non-Eastern Orthodox Christians, that images of Jesus, or even (in certain ways) the Trinity are OK, as long as one doesn't venerate them--that is bow down before them, as described in the command. The barren Zwingli/Calvinist churches are not my style--as I think they go too far in avoiding imagages (looking only to the first half of the 2nd Command) at the expense of beauty and glory in places of worship.
The Charibim, over the Ark in the Temple, the embroidered curtains there, the elaborate candle holder, all indicate that God appreciates art, and even images...as long as they are not prayed to or before.
If you look up the history of idolatry in ancient Rome--and discussions they had with Christians, you will find EXACTLY the same arguments given by modern image (flat, unrealistic or othewise) venerators. The ancient pagans were not stupid, they didn't really think their statues were the gods themselves....they just represented the gods which they worshiped by venerating the statues.
In ancient Israel and in the Decalogue it is very clear though, we are not to make representations of God as an aid to worship God, this is why the command specifically prohibits bowing before images of any kind.
Even the (great) sin of worshiping the golden calf, was more of a 2nd Command violation, than a 1st. Aaron didn't deny Yahweh had delivered them from Egypt...he just created an image to use in the worship of Yahweh. This was considered a horrible thing by Yahweh--so bad in fact He almost anihilated the whole people because of it.
The line between veneration and worship seems extremely blurred--which is why traditional protestants have always shyed from images being a direct aid to worship. A painting of Jesus on the wall is one thing--but praying before that image, honoring the image in a special way at all (whatever word you want to use)--well, that sounds like a golden calf to me--and definitely prohibited by the 2nd Commandment.
As to the original topic--it appears the AofC has been becoming more orthodox, and he shouldn't be written off. Instead of running him down, we really should pray for him, and that faithful Christians will have more and more of an influence on him.
Veneration is something that shows reverence, like some might show for the American Flag or the Holy Bible.
Worship is reserved for God alone.
A pagan might worship an idol, believing it to be holy in and of itself. An Orthodox Christian would never worship an icon although they would show it reverence which would actually be directed to the person it represented and not the object itself.
Orthodox do not "pray to" an icon. If you learned more about the Orthodox Christian Church, you'd realize how silly that suggestion really is.
"I'm not an iconoclast who thinks images in church are sinful. I take the moderate position of the vast majority of non-Roman Catholic, non-Eastern Orthodox Christians, that images of Jesus, or even (in certain ways) the Trinity are OK, as long as one doesn't venerate them--that is bow down before them, as described in the command."
But AR, what you describe is in fact iconoclasm. There is no manner of Catholic, whether Orthodox, Roman, Anglican, Lutheran or Coptic Orthodox who can say what you say because all Catholics, which is to say members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, accept the dogma of the 7th Ecumenical Council on the use and veneration of icons. We don't get to pick and choose on these matters. Protestants are free to pick and choose and have and the results are there for all the world to see.
The idea that what you call God is arbitrary, and that he has not given us his Name, is another form of iconoclasm, if you think about it.
And when the linguistic inconclasts attempt to construe "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" as a valid subsitution for "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" we are right back to the 2nd Century heresy of Modalism.
Truly, as Quoheleth says, "there is nothing new under the sun."
Well said.
That is true! But Katharine Jefferts-Schori is still an unrepentant flaming heretic who is also selling the ECUSA out to the New World Order!!!!
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