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Converting at Gunpoint
Canterbury Tales ^ | 8/27/2006 | Fr. Peregrinator

Posted on 08/27/2006 3:53:25 PM PDT by sionnsar

I just learned of the release of the two kidnapped reporters, Steven Centanni Olaf Wiig, in Gaza. We thank God for their release and safety. They reported that they were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint and they complied.

The implications of this are profound. A Christian who says any statement against Christ (be it coerced or not) has committed the sin of apostasy. "But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." Matt 10:33.

The Chronicles of the first 500 years of Christianity testify that this was the gravest sin known to man, far worse than sodomy, adultery, murder, etc. because it is a direct act of blasphemy against Christ. It is forgivable, but it is the worst sin because one denies the very channel and mode of forgiveness and salvation, that is Christ Himself.

But my worries are that most Western Christians see no problem with this. "Oh, they didn't really mean it. They were a gunpoint!" All the early martyrs were at "gunpoint," and they refused to speak against Christ, affirm the gods, or confess Caesar as "Lord." St Paul could have "tricked" his persecutors and continued to evangelize the world by getting out of jail free if he had just said to Nero (if even he didn't mean it in his heart), "Yeah, yeah, Nero. You are the Lord. I won't be a Christian anymore." But St Paul did not do this. He refused to act or speak against Christ and instead he bore his neck and allowed his head to be cut off for the glory of Christ. And his witness was magnified.

Everything we do matters. Every single thing and our witness to the world, our evangelism, depends on our steadfast testimony to Christ at all times in all places. If the Muslim sees that we are not willing to die for Christ they will not see that Christ is worth living for.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events
KEYWORDS: apostasy; centanni; christians; cnversion; denial; foxnews; hostages; islam; olafwiig; sin
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1 posted on 08/27/2006 3:53:25 PM PDT by sionnsar
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To: sionnsar

He assumes they're Christians.


2 posted on 08/27/2006 3:57:42 PM PDT by monkeywrench (Deut. 27:17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbor's landmark)
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To: sionnsar

Nice post.

And I do believe we are living in the end of times; for wrong actions are constantly justified as being correct, and right actions are condemned. I agree, many Christians will view this as a minor infraction; however I believe that God is not going to agree with many Christians. On Judgement Day, the opinions expressed by many Christians just isn't going to matter a whole lot.


3 posted on 08/27/2006 3:59:56 PM PDT by Hodar (With Rights, come Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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To: sionnsar

Peter denied Jesus 3 times.


4 posted on 08/27/2006 4:03:18 PM PDT by Between the Lines (Be careful how you live your life, it may be the only gospel anyone reads.)
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To: sionnsar

They did not really convert, they just said they did to murderers to survive and be released.

Not a big issue IMO.


5 posted on 08/27/2006 4:05:55 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Between the Lines
Peter denied three times before Christ died on the cross for our sins and before Peter received the Holy Spirit.
6 posted on 08/27/2006 4:06:40 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Between the Lines
Oh yes, Peter denied our Lord. Even that sin can be forgiven. Jesus really does love us; it's not all pretend. That doesn't keep it from being a sin, and committing it banking on future forgiveness isn't wise. It's not smart to play fast and loose with the Almighty.

What struck me about this story was that most of my friends, if they heard I was martyred (assuming I didn't wuss out) would think it was stupid of me to do so. "C'mon, everybody KNEW you didn't mean it! Why not just do it!"

Lead me not into temptation, but if I AM tried, Lord, grant me the Grace to show not any steadfastness of mine, but the wonder of thy work in me. And don't let it hurt too much, please. Thou knowest, Oh Lord, what a wuss I am.

7 posted on 08/27/2006 4:10:10 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Reality is not optional.)
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To: sionnsar
If the Muslim sees that we are not willing to die for Christ they will not see that Christ is worth living for.

I don't agree with this statement. If Muslims see that "we" are not willing to KILL for Christ then they will "see" that Christ is not worth following. That how they appear to think to me. Crazy.

8 posted on 08/27/2006 4:10:18 PM PDT by isthisnickcool (You! Shake your junk!)
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To: isthisnickcool
If Muslims see that "we" are not willing to KILL for Christ

Woah there, boss. The Bible does not say to do this.

9 posted on 08/27/2006 4:20:40 PM PDT by Michael Goldsberry (Lt. Bruce C. Fryar USN 01-02-70 Laos)
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To: sionnsar
There was much debate over this in the early church. Should those that had been baptized and had denied Christ during persecutions be re-baptized on readmission into the Church? Should they be readmitted at all?

The Roman Church chose to readmit them without being re-baptized. The only sect I know that chose to keep them out permanently were the Cathars, but there may be others, I cannot be sure.

10 posted on 08/27/2006 4:25:55 PM PDT by Between the Lines (Be careful how you live your life, it may be the only gospel anyone reads.)
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To: A CA Guy
Peter denied three times before Christ died on the cross for our sins and before Peter received the Holy Spirit.

So it was not a sin?

I don't understand where the Holy Spirit comes in, after all one of the Holy Trinity was present with Peter every day.

11 posted on 08/27/2006 4:29:29 PM PDT by Between the Lines (Be careful how you live your life, it may be the only gospel anyone reads.)
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To: sionnsar
I heard a story that one of the victims of the Columbine massacre was a girl who was given the opportunity to live, if she would deny Christ. She chose death over denial.

I see it as choosing eternal life over eternal death.

I sure hope that God does not allow me to be in the situation where I have to make that decision. If he does, I hope he gives me the strength to say that "I am a follower of Christ", rather than deny him.

Just in case anyone is wondering, Mini-14 is a Christian and is saved by the grace of God. I hope I don't get booted off of FR for saying this.

12 posted on 08/27/2006 4:31:38 PM PDT by Mini-14
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To: Michael Goldsberry
Woah there, boss. The Bible does not say to do this.

Re-read my post carefully. Look at the quotes and the last word which is "crazy".

I'm saying that considering the way these nutcases think they likely think that Christ is not worth following because unlike Allah he does not teach death. And that's something they like. Death.

Get it?

13 posted on 08/27/2006 4:32:25 PM PDT by isthisnickcool (You! Shake your junk!)
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To: sionnsar

Whatever the answers to the questions (whether they're sinning by denying Christ, or whether they need to be re-baptize), the parallel to the early church situation really stunned me. Just like when the early Christians had to face the threat of denying Christ, so do some of us, Christians who live 19-20 centuries later.


14 posted on 08/27/2006 4:33:25 PM PDT by paudio (Universal Human Rights and Multiculturalism: Liberals want to have cake and eat it too!)
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To: isthisnickcool

Too many threads on this very subject open at once. Thank you for the clarification, I did read that wrong.


15 posted on 08/27/2006 4:37:08 PM PDT by Michael Goldsberry (Lt. Bruce C. Fryar USN 01-02-70 Laos)
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To: sionnsar

This article and its author focus on whatever religious infraction or sin the journalists committed. The real story and concern is what the kidnapping goons did, i.e., force a conversion. Heck, were not we told these were the downtrodden of the world who just want us to stop oppressing them? Maybe the really just hate us because we are not Muslim. Maybe that is what we should be thinking about, not forced "conversion."


16 posted on 08/27/2006 4:40:42 PM PDT by Draco
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To: Between the Lines

Baptism of the Holy Spirit: A few referenced here...

Matthew 3:11: "...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..."
Mark 1:8: "...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..."
Luke 3:16: "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..."
Luke 24:49: "...stay here in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." (see fulfillment in Acts 2).
John 1:33: "...the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 1:4-5: "...the Promise of the Father..."; "...you will be baptized with the Holy Sprit..."
Acts 2:1-4: "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages..."
Acts 2:14-18: "...I will pour out my Spirit..." (quoting Joel 2:28 and 29).
Acts 4:31: "...they were all filled with the Holy Spirit..."
Acts 8:14-17: ...prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit..."; "...as yet the Spirit had not yet come upon any of them..."; "...they received the Holy Spirit..."; "...the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands...".
Acts 9:17: "...Jesus...has sent me...that you may...be filled with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 10:44-48: "The Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the word..."; "...the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out..."; "...people who have received the Holy Spirit..."
Acts 11:15-16: "...the Holy Spirit fell upon them..."; "...you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit..."
Acts 19:1-6: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit...?"; "...the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied..."


17 posted on 08/27/2006 4:42:36 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy

People should give these two guys a break - they must have been terrorized. In judaism, coherced conversions are not recognized. Period. You are supposed to "live by the Law", not die by it (Maimonides).


18 posted on 08/27/2006 4:59:11 PM PDT by Dodgers fan
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To: Dodgers fan

For sure, why get yourself killed with fruitcakes when you can make a false promise, get released and maybe help to instead bring down these people's destruction?


19 posted on 08/27/2006 5:03:01 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator


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