Posted on 08/27/2006 3:53:25 PM PDT by sionnsar
Let me clariy this by stating that Judaism values its martyrs and on Yom Kippur we read from the Martyrology. In Germany during the Crusades, most of the Jews chose martyrdom over forced conversion to Christianity. However, there was a competing school that believed that while forced conversions were bad and that martyrdom was preferable, if you tried to return to Judaism and some point, or went to a land where you could practice freely, you would be forgiven for the coherced conversion. (Maimonides - The Law is meant to live by and not to die by.)
That's how I feel. Why become another "decapitation tape" for Al Jazeera? Why would anybody condemn these two guys? I am sure they feel deep love for "Islam" now that they see how it is practiced!
I for one refuse to pass judgment on them. This is between them and God.
I hope they're saved, to begin with. I hope they've asked God for His forgiveness.
I pray that if they're not saved, that they will come to know Jesus Christ as their savior.
I thank God they've been released.
Some people (even Christians) can be overly obsessed with religion and get twisted in the process of their humanistic views of interpretation, but what do I know?
The Son of God and His plan was around before we were, before the Romans thought of making crosses, before the world was created. To think His qualities are somehow diminished because some human action had not yet been taken against Him is kind of arrogant. Our idea of a timeline makes no difference in God's eyes- he is what he is, always has been and always will be. Peter knew what Christ is. Now Thomas doubted it even after the crucifiction...
God knew what Peter believed, before and after. Peter was just a man who had gotten a bit too proud and in his denial he was shown that Man is weak and isn't capable of saving himself. Jesus had do what He did to save the likes of Peter. [And all the rest of us.]
God knows what they believe, and they know what they believe, but we don't know what they believe. It should be obvious enough that their hearts were not in Islam with guns pressed to their heads, but I reckon some folks need to have someone draw them a picture. To think that some halfbaked cult can defy God's will and "convert" someone He's already bought and paid for by just coercing their bodies- not their souls- to mouth a couple of words praising something that doesn't exist is giving wat too much credit to the cult. Conversion as we understand it is a matter of grace, belief and faith, not lip service. It doesn't matter a hill of beans what a muslim thinks a conversion is- their standards of admission to their faith are so low even a blue and gold macaw- or your answering machine- could "convert" to Islam by mouthing the right words. Just because their standards of admission are so low does not mean we should set our standards of conversion from Chritianity or Judaism that low.
What happened to the reporters is a personal matter of faith that is not between us, but between God and each of them. We should concern ourselves with our own spiritual shortcomings and let God attend to His business- lest we succumb to pride as Peter did. God has a thing against pride, one reason we were told not to show off by praying out in the public streets. We were given faith- it's not something we develop on our own and it is not defined by other people's expectations, observations, or religious fantasies.
I do believe that they will be forgiven if they simply seek forgiveness.
People should not obsess over these two guys' fake "conversion" to get away from their wackey kidnappers.
What would the world be saying if they were forced at gunpoint to confess Christianity I wonder?
My gosh! It may be a noble thing to die for your faith or for your country, but it's a ridiculous waste to die for nothing, to die simply to show brutal thugs how tough you are.
These men did the absolute right thing. They showed exactly how much the western world values radical Islam--as much as spit.
People should laugh about it. It showed the world how empty and worthless the radical Islamic cause is.
The men have not a thing to be forgiven for.
but it is ok for atheists to deny...
It is worst than that.
As "converts" if they relapse from Islam, they are, according to some schools of Islam, subject to the death penalty.
To be honest, until I read this, I never even thought about the point of denying Christ. But you are right, it is something we should never do. Those who died before us did so still claiming Christ is Lord and would not bow down to another god.
On a note about a million times less serious, what about those chain emails I get that say I will be denying Christ if I don't pass them on to ten people?
I wonder if the Padre has expressed an opinion on those.
He assumes they are Christians AND that they were asked to deny Christ.
"People should laugh about it. It showed the world how empty and worthless the radical Islamic cause is.
The men have not a thing to be forgiven for."
So true.
If we assume that these journalists were Christians, then I for one an apalled at the apparent indiference by most of the readers to their conversion to islam. For 2000 years many better than we have died rather renounce their faith. I pray I would be as brave as the original Church martyrs:
From http://www.domestic-church.com/CONTENT.DCC/19971201/SAINTS/STSTEVN.HTM
Saint Stephen was unquestionably Jewish, and was most likely a Diaspora jew who spoke Greek. His spoken name was Stephanos, which in Greek means "crown". The circumstances of his conversion aren't known, but he appears in the Acts when amongst the growing numbers of gathered disciples there were murmurs against the treatment of widows who spoke Greek by the Hebrews.
The Apostles gathered the Faithful together and told them they could not dispense with preaching and prayer to 'care for tables', and they would have to choose seven holy men to continue to preach and pray. This was unanimously accepted by the community and Stephen, "full of Faith and the Holy Ghost" along with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas the proselyte of Antioch were chosen. Then the Apostles laid hands on the men in confirmation, and thus the first deacons were ordained.
Stephen spoke with such elegance and wisdom that many converted, and this raised the ire of the elders of the synagogue. They wished to up-end the saint, but were unable to argue him into submission, so they obtained false witnesses to say Stephen had blasphemed Moses and God. Specifically that he had foretold the destruction of the temple, and spoke that the Mosaic traditions were hollow and no longer acceptable to God, since Jesus the Christ had thrown them away.
He was allowed to speak, and what follows in Acts 7:2-53 is an inspired dissertation on the economy of salvation beginning with Abraham and ending with Jesus. His witness ends with a stinging rebuke of the Sanhedrin as "...stiff-necked and uncircumcised in hearts and ears........who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."
The jews were enraged and Stephen, full of the Holy Ghost, spoke of a vision of heaven with the Saviour at the right hand of God. The assembly cried out with one voice and resolved to put him to death without delay. They rushed en masse at the saint. They pushed him about town, finally dragging him outside the city and relieving their rage against him by stoning him. Stephen implored the Lord to receive his spirit, and that his killers not be condemned for their act. Thus he went to his reward as the first martyr for Christ.
And a link to others, as well:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pst00808.htm
If it was good enough for them it should be good enough for us, too.
Since there is no statements or evidence that they were asked to renounce Christ, what's the problem? Do you know what the formula for conversion to Islam is? It's repeating the 5 pillars of faith 3 times. That's it. Conversion requires a change of heart, do you really think these guys converted to Islam in the truest sense of the word? I don't and I'm willing to bet they don't either.
Don't confuse converting to CHRIST with converting to Islam. Two VERY different things.
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