Posted on 08/14/2006 11:19:14 AM PDT by Gamecock
Please forgive me and call uncle when I've crossed the line but Truth is, in my opinion, so fundamentally important that we must challenge even our own opinions lest we fail to find it.
In Truth, you completely missed the point of the article.
Yet in reality, by thinking that this was about Orthodoxy to the exclusion of all else, including yourself, you prove to be exclusionary.
This article is about Truth which is absolute (not to be understood that the article is Truth...that can be debated).
Pilate ask Christ "What is Truth?" not realizing that Truth was not a philisophical end but instead Truth was a person and even more true it was a person standing directly in front of Pilate and Pilate missed Him.
The article is a question of fundamental importance..."Who do you say that I am..."
Who is God? The eternal Logos according to St John. O Sophia...The Wisdom...of God. But Christ reveals more: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life..." Christ is Truth.
What is important to take away from the article is not whether or not you're Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or any other faith...the importance is to ask yourself "Who is God" (a much deeper question than a name...ie Christ)
Diabolos: Lit. Slanderer
From the very beginning Diabolos has tried to twist our concept of God. "Did God really say that?" "Did God really mean that?" [paraphrased] But mostly Diabolos has desired to drive us from a loving relationship with God by making us believe deeply, in a complex labrynth, that a God that would kill His Son on the cross cannot be all that good.
This isn't about who is right and who is wrong per se. But what do you really believe? Who is the person God? All Good and Loving, Truthful? Or is He vengful. Most will answer the former when they tend like moths to churches with underlying dogma that support the latter.
You may be a rareity. I'm not judging. But have you really asked what you believe.
The article is only a beginning...I've not always been Orthodox. As a matter of fact I was born Protestant and spent most of 30 years as one. Interesting that although I was first appalled as you to read this diagnosis and thought exactly as you did..."The Papists and the Protestants are wrong; we [Orthodox] are right."
But as I began to ask ministers the dogma of the churches I attended, sure enough it was true.
I sought out RC and found the same (along with many other bags).
So as I look in many places I began to extrapolate the theology of what was discussed in this book and began to realize that any other solution to the problem of sin just didn't add up.
The question was, when confronted with a total paradigm shift in theology, was I willing to make it. Lose friends, family, and follow Christ. The answer had to be yes...otherwise I really didn't believe.
It's not a matter of arguing from Orthodox but instead finding that when pitted up against all other theology...the errors cannot lead to Truth.
Christ promised that the "Gates of Hell would not prevail" and the He would send the Spirit of Truth to "guide the Church in all Truth".
One must ask themselves...if this really exists...doesn't this Church have the right to claim absolute Truth. And won't Diabolos try to create so many false truths that it become almost impossible to see Truth when it stand directly in front of you as it did Pilate.
Knowing that it exists and giving each the right to prove it is what it is all about. That is different than starting with the premise that it does not exist and therefore I will not look.
I've given all a chance and only one has no error (not to be misunderstood with human error on a microscale, but on the macroscale in spite of human error has a church maintained the original word of God and has it managed to defend itself against all that is false).
Seek Truth (Christ) and you will find Him...
Of course the sabbath commandment is reitereated in the new testament:
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Note that the book of Luke was written 27 years after the death of Christ. The author matter of factly states, 27 years AFTER the death of Christ, that the women rested on the sabbath because of the commandment. The women obeyed this commandment and scripture explicity says that the sabbath is a commandment of God...27 years after the death of Christ.
Reading Jeremaih, it's evident that God was addressing specifically a problem with Jerusalem and his instruction is:
Jer 17:19 Thus said the LORD unto me; Go and stand in the gate of the children of the people, whereby the kings of Judah come in, and by the which they go out, and in all the gates of Jerusalem;
Jer 17:20 And say unto them, Hear ye the word of the LORD, ye kings of Judah, and all Judah, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that enter in by these gates:
Jer 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
Jer 17:22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
Apparently the problem WAS that the people were violating the sabbath commandment by working, carrying burdens into Jerusalem as part of working.
There is nothing in scripture that says you are prohibited from carrying anything on the sabbath. That's the type of legalistic thinking that the Pharisee's fell into.
Sorry guy. You could be mistaking that call for indigestion.
Any manjack carrying a bible can make a claim to divine inspiration and many do, funny how Christendom fell into disarray with the advent of the printing press: the devil sifts them like wheat, pride makes them disobedient and rebellious, and we get Mormons and 40,000 denominations of "Christian" and Muslims. No thanks.
x we call those "transitional figures" heretics.
Where does the doctrine of praying to Mary come from? I can't find a single scripture that supports it in the Bible...can you enlighten me?
There is no prohibition about having a fire on the sabbath. In fact, God specifically commands that there be fire on the sabbath for burnt sacrifices:
Num 28:9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
Num 28:10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.
Pretty hard to have a burnt offering without a fire.
But then what does this mean:
Exo 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
Again, it's all about context:
Chapter 35 is all about Moses telling Israel how God instructed them to build the tabernacle and the ark of the covenant:
Exo 35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
The building of the tabernacle required quite a bit of physical labor, as well as melting and smelting of metal. The prohibition against kindling a fire probably refers to the smelting fires, industrial type working fires, that would be needed to do this. Moses is simply reminding them that they shouldn't be working on the tabernacle and the ark on the sabbath day.
Every sect challenged on authority always tries the same thing: witness the Oxford movement's attempts to prove the legitimacy of the Anglican church. It's fruit? Catholics, Roman Catholics.
Any judicious study of history will always lead you back to a Eucharist that is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, a papacy founded on Peter and an apostolic succession. And if you don't cross the Tiber, your loss.
You're kidding yourselves about the legitimacy of your sect.
Just get in your, drive down a highway and count the churches. Whether it's 10,000 or 40,000 it doesn't matter. The order of magnitude is the same. Wheat sifted by Satan.
Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
Mar 1:21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mar 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
Mar 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.
Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Luk 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Luk 6:6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
Luk 6:7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
Luk 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
Luk 14:3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Joh 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures,
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
While the basis of your answer is correct, you avoided answering my question. Maybe you are not a SDA, but in the official SDA "Questions on Doctrine" states, "Christ took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature...Christ took human nature and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He took our nature and its deteriorating condition." (pp. 654-656) Of course if this was true, there could have been no sinless sacrifice, no hope for sinners, no Savior.
From "Seventh Day Adventists Believe... A Biblical Excposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines copy 1988 page 46-47:
"He (Jesus) was made in the "likeness of human flesh" or "sinful human nature" (cf Rom. 8:3). This in no way indicates that Jesus Christ was sinful, or participated in sinful acts or thoughts. Though made in the form or likeness of sinful flesh, He was sinless and His sinlessness is beyond questioning."
I noticed no clear answer. SDA's believe in no assurance, because failure to "keep the law" is loss of salvation. This is salvation by works which clearly violates Eph 2:8&9
10. Experience of Salvation: In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)
No sign of works based salvation here...
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Plus it ignores verses such as...1John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Either Christ is sufficient or He needs our help. Which by the way, your "works salvation" is a very Catholic view.
Catholicism is not 100% wrong. That faith is very works based, but the Protestant notion of grace alone leads to abominable doctrines like, "once saved always saved". To elaborate, not stealing for your entire life will never lead to faithin Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ will most assuredly lead one to not steal, thus one's works are an outward side of their faith. The gift of salvation is free, but man will be judged by his works:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Mat 15:6 and in no way he honors his father or his mother. And you voided the commandment of God by your tradition. Mat 15:7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, Mat 15:8 "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. Mat 15:9 But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
Jesus is saying right here that running around saying Jesus, Jesus, yet continuing in sin is folly.
Where is the NT verse that states failing to keep the Sabbath is a sin, or we are commanded to keep the Sabbath?
My Bible goes from Genesis to Revelation. But, while this NT scripture does not say the Sabbath specifically, I think you can get the picture. Besides, if Christ would have declared the Sabbath null and void, He would not have been Christ but a false prophet.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Who is this remnant in the end time keeping the Commandments and having the Testimony of Jesus Christ?
me:"The Sabbath is the foremost thing we can do to show God we love Him." you:Where is your Scriptural support for that line?
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
I regard taking a day out of the week to honor the Creator of the universe in the way He commanded us to do so rather hightly. There are only 2 Commandments out of the 10 that tell us to do something rather than to NOT do something. Both of them honor creation.
I believe you don't face up to this question because you know that you fail to keep the Sabbath by the standards laid down in Levidicus (sunset to sunset), Jerimiah (no burden carried), and Exodus (fire and cooking). If you fail to keep one of the Commands you fail them all.
I am a sinner, but you ask such questions so as to attack me. It happens almost every time I debate the Sabbath. The sunday keepers always want to license their wilfull sin by showing the sins of others. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Of course you can and should worship God every day of the week. But what is the problem with giving Him the day He commanded? Please, tell me why you guys are so incredibly adamant about not keeping the Sabbath? Do you actually believe in a Judgement and a Resurrection? What standard will Jesus use to Judge us if not the perfect Law of God?
Where does it say this? I'll tell you you where it doesn't say this. [Matthew 28:1]
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Like I said before, that is the same broad logic Catholics use to justify Mary as having special intercessory powers.
Jesus' words actually contradict the worship of Mary:
Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
So do Pauls':
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
As I have posted earlier, the Scriptures uphold the Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation. Your likening Sabbatarians to Catholics adds nothing to the discussion.
Next, you confuse the word rest with worship. Worship went on in the Temple and Tabernacle seven days a week (except for some national religious holidays). Where is the command to worship on Saturdays for Christians?
You are correct. Keeping the Sabbath holy does not require atending services. However, the tradition of attending sevices and fellowshipping with like minded Christians on the Sabbath is scriptural and I feel very healthy.
1 Corinthians 16:1-3. This verse corresponds to Romans 15:25 and also Acts 11:28. There was a severe famine in Judea (and the entire Roman world) during the reign of Claudius and Paul and Barnabas made an effort to take collections to the poor among the Saints in Jerusalem. These verses say nothing of a religious service being conducted on the first of the week....only that everyone should make a contribution then.
1 Corinthians 16:2 in the Greek. Notice that it doesn't even say....first day of the week. It says "First of week". Since the Sabbath ended at sundown these collections for the poor saints in Jerusalem just may have been collected after Sabbath services were over. Don't know because it really doesn't say......but it also doesn't say anything about a religious service here.
"I wonder if you can give a complete and accurate account of the doctrine of praying to Mary in such a way that a Catholic schooled in theology would say,"Yes. That's what we believe and teach.""
Catholics pray to Mary to "put in a good word" with Jesus. Their rationale is that because she was His earthly mother, He'll listen to her. They say they don't worship her, merely honor her, although they do pray to her and kneel before idols of her. Catholic doctrine also says she was sinless and taken into Heaven without dying.
Is that a fairly accurate summary of what Cathlolics believe?
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