Posted on 08/14/2006 11:19:14 AM PDT by Gamecock
Just for the record, I believe that Jesus "literally" fulfiled the prophecy regarding "three days and three nights". He was in the heart of the earth "just as" Jonah was in the belly of the fish. The "sign" of Jonah was actually fulfulled as a witness to the Jews who were looking for a sign.
However, that does not require that anyone take the phrase "three days and three night" as a "literally" precise 72 hours period of time. The Jews did not take it that way. It was a Jewish idiom.
No one was sitting there with a stop watch and writing the timeline down in detail.
The Friday/Saturday/Sunday scenario fits the words of Christ when they are properly interpreted. See my comments in post #280.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
??? Is this some sort of willful diversion from the facts in the case?
If you re-define enough words, you might be able to exonerate Bill Clinton, too. I am tired of the sciptural lambada, topcat. I don't think it was meant for it to be this hard to understand the word. Daniel and Revelation are supposed to be hard, 3 days and 3 nights ain't hard.
I'm sorry that neither careful exegesis from the word of God nor the words of other competent scholars can convince you that your personal theology on this matter is in error, and that the Sunday resurrection is not a work of the antichrist, as you seem to think.
It is firmly grounded in the word of God and has been taught as being the truth since the very first century. nouveau theologies such as that put forward by goups like the SDA, Messianic Judaism, etc cannot change the truth of the word of God. They are the ones in confusion who attempt to change His word to suit these theologies.
My prayer for you is that one day you will see that too.
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (The Epistle of Barnabas, AD100).
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (The Epistle of Barnabas, AD100).
Nice try, but I actually know what eighth day theology is. Quoting some first century Hellenist of the order of Plato keeping the 8th day in honor of the pleroma is not exactly convincing. This is a very early spiritual adultery - mixing pagan with true worship. The Catholics still have the nerve to call it the eighth day.
nouveau theologies such as that put forward by groups like the SDA, Messianic Judaism, etc cannot change the truth of the word of God. They are the ones in confusion who attempt to change His word to suit these theologies.
Alas, we Sabbatarians are striving to live a coherent Biblical life. We tend to put scripture over tradition so much that it makes life inconvenient. Have you ever tried to buy a car on Sunday? For the most part, we weight our theology heavily on the following verse:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Our faith is linear from Genesis to Revelation. We do not dispense with any parts of the Bible. Sola Scriptura indeed.
My prayer for you is that one day you will see that too.
Been there, done that. Protestantism and Romanism are very conflicted theologies, IMO.
"Likewise you shall do with your oxen and your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me." (Exo. 22:30)
"Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the Lord for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest." (Lev. 23:39)
"'When these days are over it shall be, on the eighth day and thereafter, that the priests shall offer your burnt offerings and your peace offerings on the altar; and I will accept you,' says the Lord God." (Eze. 43:27)
All these OT "eighth day" verses point to the work of Christ, completed on the "eighth day" when He rose from the dead.
Sola Scriptura indeed.
Except you have failed to deal with this matter sola Scriptura. Just try exegeting Luke 24 and get us to a Saturday resurrection. It cannot happen.
"Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons." (MArk 16:9)
Okay, give me a yes or no on these questions:
Do you also believe the "three days and three nights" that Jonah was in the fish is an idiom?
Do you believe that the scribes and Pharisees and all those who had ever read or heard of the story of Jonah had no idea of how long Jonah was actually in the fish?
The answers to these questions are vitally important. They point out whether or not one is believing a lie, or the truth.
I of course believe that the scribes, pharisees and all those who had ever heard of the story of Jonah believed that Jonah was literally in the fish for 3 days and 3 nights. Whether this was 71 hours and 58 minutes or 72 hours and 3 minutes is immaterial. Scripture says that he was the fish for 3 days AND 3 nights, measured by sunsets.
If Jonah was swallowed by the fish at 3 PM on a Wednesday, then he stayed in the fish, according to God's word, until Saturday around 3 PM...or a time period that encompassed three full days and three full nights.
Now if this is an idiom, then we do not know exactly how long he was in the fish.
If he got swallowed at 3 PM Wednesday then he could have been in there only until 10 AM Thursday because you figure Wednesday day as 1 day, Wednesday night as 1 night, and Thursday day as 1 day...or a total of three days and nights.
Or he could have been in there until 12 noon on Friday if you count another way. Or 3 AM Saturday morning if counted another day.
Here's the important point and one that you don't seem to want to deal with:
If it was not a literal 3 days and 3 nights that Jonah was in the fish, then the only sign that Jesus Christ gave that he was the messiah is invalid and Jesus IS NOT the messiah.
Don't you see?? If Jesus was NOT in grave exactly as long as scripture (Jonah) said, and exactly as long as Jesus prophesized, then Jesus would not have been the messiah. He would have been a false prophet.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The sign, the miracle, the token, the wonder, of the prophet Jonah was that he was swallowed for three days and 3 nights AND then came out.
And with that...I''m done with this subject. Feel free to comment or not.
God only writes his laws (oops, laws are still there!) into the hearts of those under the new covenant:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
This occurs only with the indwelling of the holy spirit through believing in Christ. A jungle tribesman in Brazil does not have God's law written in his heart. He may refrain from killing his neighbor because it causes tension and trouble in the tribe, but he has no qualms about killing someone outside of his tribe.
Do you want me to tell you that the Greeks really did use punctuation? Will that make you feel better? Do you want me to tell you that early on the first of the week would not be Saturday evening but Sunday morning after sunrise? Would that make you feel better?
Just try exegeting Luke 24 and get us to a Saturday resurrection. It cannot happen.
Luke 24:1 "But on the first of the week at early dawn they came to the tomb bringing which they had prepared aromatics and some others with them."
Would you like me to tell you that "early dawning of the first of week" is really not shortly after Sabbath sundown? Would that make you feel better?
Would you like me to tell you that although the Sabbath is mentioned 126 times in the Old Testament and 62 times in the New Testament it has now been done away with? Would you like me to say that because the "First of the Week" is mentioned seven times (None with a sacred intent) that it has now replaced the Lord's Holy Sabbath? would that make you feel better?
Would you like me to say that [Mark 16:2; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1; and John 20:1] don't actually say the women are visiting an empty tomb on the first of the week? Would you feel better if I said Jesus was actually just coming out of the tomb at sunrise just before they all arrived? Would that make you feel better?
Would you feel better if I told you that [John 20:19] was a religious service and not just the disciples gathering for "fear of the Jews?"
Would you feel better if I said [Acts 20:7] was really an early Sunday morning religious observance and not an after the Sabbath meal where it was so dark that verse 8 says many lamps were burning....late Saturday night?
Would it make you feel better if I told you that 1 Corinthians 16:1 says they were all passing the collection plate after a Sunday morning revival and not just taking up a simple collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem?
Well topcat....I've mentioned all the verses in the New Testament that mention the "First [day] of the Week] and I would really like to help you out with your theology by telling you everything that would make you feel better....but I can't. It's not true!
Oh.....the reason I left Matthew 28:1 out of the mix is because the Greek says "LATE ON SABBATH."
The church has managed to answer all these "objections" for 2000 years.
If you come up with a new arguments for your cultic views that have not been addressed in many hundreds of volumes on the subject, give me a call. Otherwise, I'm done.
The 8th day to a Hebrew is not the same as the eighth day to a Roman. But I reckon you already knew that.
Except you have failed to deal with this matter sola Scriptura. Just try exegeting Luke 24 and get us to a Saturday resurrection. It cannot happen.
My problem is solely with the Friday/Sunday equation. Jesus may very well have been resurrected on Sunday. But the starting point has to be adjusted in order to fulfill the Jonah prophesy.
Jesus being raised on Sunday does not abolish any of the 10 Commandments. Changing the Sabbath fulfills the prophesy I referenced earlier. Changing times and law.
The 8th day to a Hebrew is not the same as the eighth day to a Roman.
Please explain the difference. Hebrews and Romans both share the common notion of a seven day week. The "eighth day" is one week after the "first day".
Try to use original source material and not your own speculation. Thanks.
But the starting point has to be adjusted in order to fulfill the Jonah prophesy.
Then you still don't understand the use of Hebrew idioms of time.
While the typology of the eight day was developing in orthodox gnosis [Roman Christianity], it was having a consideable success in... heretical gnosis.
The Gnostics, who were decided enemies of Judaism, were carried away by this theme.
Epistle of Barnabas, XV, 8-9
The present sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but that which I have made, in which I will give rest to all things and make the beginning of an eighth day, that is the beginning of another world. Wherefore we also celebrate with gladness the eighth day.
Primitive Christianity in Crisis, Alan Knight, page 65
I think the only possible conclusion is that Sunday and Eight Day worship did have significant theoligical meaning when it was first introduced in the early church. Though less radical in condemning material existence, Hellenistic Christian Eight Day theology takes the same general form as in the mainstream Gnostic and Pagan Hellenistic tradition. It rejects the material world and looks forward exclusively to a non-material spirituality of the heavens.... Clement expressed the same idea by associating coming out of sin with rising above the seven spheres of the material world and passing beyond the enumeration of time into seven periods, finding true rest in the Eight Day rather than in creation rest. This is classic Gnostic theology.
FRegards, KU04
But thanks for trying.
Those books you mention, were declared to be NON-CANONICAL, by the Undivided Church.
That is the end of the story, as far as I am concerned.
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