Interesting. Do you believe Enoch is a type of the church? If so, is there any other basis for it, other than the fact that he was taken up before the flood?
later study ping
Ping to read later
All of the above passages could deal with the "Bowls of wrath" period rather than the entire tribulation. The scriptures speak of the quickness of Christ's return, not that it could occur any time. We won't know the hour, but we will know the season.
No matter what the arguments are, my ready answer is: God will do what God wants to do, how he wants to do it, in his time and in his way. And no matter how many hours we argue over it, nothing can change that fact.
I just want to be ready.
To conserv371, blue-duncan, others;
Thank you for starting this thread. Considering my much limited understanding, I think we are in agreement. At least I am able to fit a few more pieces of the "puzzle" together using your/my interpretation of Scripture.
To GrandEagle, bremenboy, others;
Don't even joke about being a heretic, because you are obviously not. Let us also agree that which of us is wrong, it is we and our lack of total knowledge of God's Word that is wrong and that God's Word is right.
We may be "opposites". I was raised in a church that never mentioned a "rapture" or a "millennium". I literally stumbled into this way many years ago and am still excited over it. Allow me to add a couple of verses to ponder upon:
1 Thessalonians ch5 vs 9-11: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that,whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."
Luke ch21 vs28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
Are we told to stockpile food? To build bomb shelters?
Nope. We're told to "look up", and to "fear not". Interesting. I wonder what Paul means by a mystery when he writes in 1 Corinthians ch15 vs 51 where it is written, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."
What is this "mystery"? Is something revealed here we did not know before?
Either way FRiend, avoid the temptation to view the "rapture crowd" as slightly less informed. What if we are right? {You'll be in for a pleasant surprise!} What if we are wrong? What if someday we look out our window and find ourselves in the middle of the tribulation?
Well then I suggest we are going to need people like you praying earnestly for us, since undoubtedly many will have their faith shaken.
I've ranted long enough. Let me say that I appreciate all the opinions.
"Surely I come quickly."
"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
hehe- I'm not even a pre-millenialist, much less pre-trib!
I prefer the view that we are here to occupy this territory until He comes. Dominion and authority, not failure and escapism.
I know I know. Flame away! :)
Matthew 25
"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'
" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
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The Biblical pattern does not support a pre-tribulation rapture. God does not rescue His people from adversity, He makes a way for them to go through it. This doctrine is a heresy that infilitrated the certain sects of Christianity in the 1800s. It is nothing more than wishful thinkng and escapism.
He did a fair comparison between the main rapture and millennial positions.
The pre-trib rapture and dispensational pre-millennial position is one I feel very confident in...
Thank heaven, as ballyhooed milestones pass one by one, with nothing happening, a lot of saints are finding more God-honoring ways of viewing, and working to change the course of events.
A quick and useful aphorim:
There are 7 trumpets (Book of Revelations). Jesus comes back at the LAST trumpet (the 7th trumpet).
Which means all of God's people (not just Jewish converts to Christianity) will be here on earth through trumpets 1-7 (except for those, of course, who die a regular natural death and go on to be with the Lord).
During the pouring out of His wrath, God has a plan for His people to be protected, just as Noah was protected during the flood of judgment on the world.
And also Lot was protected from the wrath and judgment of Sodom, Gomorrha, and the surrounding cities (see the Book of Jude).
In both cases (Noah and Lot), they were still on the earth (did not go flying off) -- but were protected and spared by God.
Jesus specifically used the days of Noah and Lot...."as it was in the days of Noah (Lot), so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man"....(see Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 17).
In both cases, the wicked were the ones TAKEN... "the flood came and took them all away.... the fire came and destroyed them all...."
Rather than start a new thread, it seems more fitting to add to this one. I mostly agree that the priority is to be ready regardless. And, I still don't think anyone has it all figured out. I was reared pre-Trib then moved to a--'God will make it all pan out, regardless' position--which I still largely hold. However, LaHaye and Jenkins are also quite convincing.
Am reading Tim LaHaye & Jerry B Jenkins: ARE WE LIVING IN THE END TIMES?
It is often contended that John Darby was the first to mention the Pre-trib perspective. Clearly, that's not so.
pp112-115:
. . . p114 Darby claimed he got the inspiration for his understanding of a pre-Trib rapture in 1828 afterhe saw the distinction between Israel and the church in his study of the book of Ephesians. Few scholars who do not make that distinction see a pre-Trib rapture of the church. In fact, separating Israel and the church is one of the major keys to rightly understanding Bible lprophecy. Second is taking the prophetic Scriptures literally whenever possible. Grant Jeffrey, a current prophecy scholar and speaker, has done extensive research into the writings of many prophecy teachers prior to the eighteenth century. In his book Apocalypse, he quotes many who had a definite understanding of the difference between the two phases of our Lord's coming, particularly His coming for His people prior to the Tribulation and the revealing of the 'man of sin.' Jeffrey's most important contribution was his electrifying discovery of a statement in an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. [Qx emphasis added, as usual] Designated Pseudo-Ephraim, there is some question that it was really written by Ephraim of Nisibis, (A.D. 306-373), a prolific Syrian church father. Some prefer a later date for this homily, called "Sermon on the End of the World," and suggest it may not have been written until A.D. 565-627. For our purpose, the real date is immaterial, for allowing its composition as late as the seventh century proves that even at this early date (eleven hundred years before John Darby), some Christians saw the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation. In challenging Christians to holy living (always a result of Rapture teaching), the ancient author wrote:
LaHaye and Jenkins make many good points demonstrating from Scripture that the pre-Trib rapture is the only construction on such realities that covers the most data points. I hope to post some of their points in the coming days.
Excellent entertainment.
Thanks.