[Quix]

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Rather than start a new thread, it seems more fitting to add to this one. I mostly agree that the priority is to be ready regardless. And, I still don't think anyone has it all figured out. I was reared pre-Trib then moved to a--'God will make it all pan out, regardless' position--which I still largely hold. However, LaHaye and Jenkins are also quite convincing.

Am reading Tim LaHaye & Jerry B Jenkins: ARE WE LIVING IN THE END TIMES?

It is often contended that John Darby was the first to mention the Pre-trib perspective. Clearly, that's not so.

pp112-115:

IS THE PRE-TRIB VIEW A RECENT THEORY?

For several years opponents of the pre=Trib position have argued that it was invented by John Darby in the mid-1800s and was never mentioned before that. Quite simply, this argument is false--a fact that cost one post-Trib writer a bundle of cash. This author offered five hundred dollars to anyone who could prove that the pre-Trib Rapture theory was known before John Darby began to popularize it in the 1840s. When it was discovered that the Reverend Morgan Edwards saw it back in 1742, the writer had to pay off his costly challenge. He has since had to admit his error and withdraw his offer.

. . .

p114 Darby claimed he got the inspiration for his understanding of a pre-Trib rapture in 1828 afterhe saw the distinction between Israel and the church in his study of the book of Ephesians. Few scholars who do not make that distinction see a pre-Trib rapture of the church. In fact, separating Israel and the church is one of the major keys to rightly understanding Bible lprophecy. Second is taking the prophetic Scriptures literally whenever possible.

Grant Jeffrey, a current prophecy scholar and speaker, has done extensive research into the writings of many prophecy teachers prior to the eighteenth century. In his book Apocalypse, he quotes many who had a definite understanding of the difference between the two phases of our Lord's coming, particularly His coming for His people prior to the Tribulation and the revealing of the 'man of sin.'

Jeffrey's most important contribution was his electrifying discovery of a statement in an apocalyptic sermon from the fourth century. [Qx emphasis added, as usual] Designated Pseudo-Ephraim, there is some question that it was really written by Ephraim of Nisibis, (A.D. 306-373), a prolific Syrian church father. Some prefer a later date for this homily, called "Sermon on the End of the World," and suggest it may not have been written until A.D. 565-627. For our purpose, the real date is immaterial, for allowing its composition as late as the seventh century proves that even at this early date (eleven hundred years before John Darby), some Christians saw the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation. In challenging Christians to holy living (always a result of Rapture teaching), the ancient author wrote:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.6

There can be no doubt that this fourth- (or at the latest, seventh-) century Bible scholar saw the saints gathered before the Tribulation. His statement has all the marks of a pre-Trib rapture of the saints distinct from the Glorious Appearing. While Ephraim (or whoever the true author was) saw the Tribulation lasting only three and a half years, the fact remains that he saw a pre=Trib rapture of the church long before that view became popular in the nineteenth century. Considering that less than 10 percent of ancient Christian documents have been preserved, we have no doubt there must have been other Bible students who also discovered the teaching of the Blessed Hope. p115

I hope that can lay to rest all this nonsense about Darby.

LaHaye and Jenkins make many good points demonstrating from Scripture that the pre-Trib rapture is the only construction on such realities that covers the most data points. I hope to post some of their points in the coming days.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

I expect what happens will happen.

I don’t expect to be raptured out, to be honest though, but whatever God chooses is OK with me.

But I don’t lose sleep on it either way.

[firebrand]

No one has mentioned Mark Chapter 13. Isn't this the ur-Gospel?

I sometimes wonder if the rapture warning isn't a parable for something else: perhaps denying Christ and getting left behind in a world without Christians.

[DocRock]

bookmark

[GrandEagle]

Hey, thanks for the information. I have frequently believed that it was Darby who got it from some soothsayer or something (can't remember it right now).
Anyway, regardless of my position - I appreciate the information.

[JockoManning]

Thanks Quix. The thought of being raptured is a glorious thought to me, be it pre- mid- or post-trib, getting caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord Jesus is a magnificent event which I look forward to.

I try to live my life now in such a way that my habits and my strength of character are at a point that if the Evil Days begin and we of saving faith are still here, that I will overcome until the end, please, Lord, make it so. That my heart doesn’t grow cold, that I don’t accept the mark of the beast, and that my hope and trust remain anchored in Jesus, the One Who forgives sin and conquers evil.

If it turns out we are raptured BEFORE the tribulation, I’m not gonna cling to my front porch and yell, NO NO I WON’T GO, IT’S TOO SOON !!!

I’m gonna say, GLORY HALLELUJAH THANK YOU JESUS and then I’ll sing and shout the victory on my way up to be with Him.

Meanwhile, I am praying for all those I love and all those I come in contact with and for the whole world to be made ready so that they may share with those of us who by faith have a place in His eternal Kingdom.

[Marysecretary]

Thanks, Quix. I am still not convinced of pre trib but,as I said before, I’ll grab my ticket at the station when the train pulls in.

[American in Israel]

Rev 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Pretty clear that this describes "the rapture", only problem is this happens after the first six seals are opened. One has to stretch pretty far to ignore it. The "Oh, those are the people who came to the Lord after the rapture" is real thin as they were have mentioned, while the main body was ignored in the text.

Nope, pre-trib is wishful thinking. Specially since the first two seals have already happened.