Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
there's a difference between the backslider and the Christian who still sins.
The backslider was never saved to begin with - the backslider is the seed that was choked out by the thorns, and the seed that was thrown by the road.
Every saved Christian sins, but our salvation has produced in us a Godly desire to repent and to seek the truth of the word of God. To hunger and thirst for righteousness. Laziness in pursuing the things of God is disobedience - which is why we're commanded to gather together as believers and stir each other up - support one another and carry each other's burdens.
It's true that all Christians grow at different rates, but the desire is always there regardless.
I've seen first-hand the emotional "experience" that whips up the non-believer into a frenzy. And then lets them down.
>>It is our job to bring people to where they can receive the truth.<<
And again you ignore the importance of the MEANS in which you bring them in. Holy means, and with the gospel truth, not worldly means that will not set them apart from the world.
By the way - can we consolidate our talking points to one post each? :-)
It's confusing having 3 different conversations with the same person!
"There's no such thing as a carnal Christian."
Paul seems to disagree in his letters to the church at Rome (romans 17) and to the church at Corinth (1 Cor. 3).
"That the church building is not to be set apart and sanctified as a holy place?"
It is the people who are set apart and sanctified. The building is just that. When we are raptured it will still be here. Some meet in schools, some in shopping centers, some in Masonic Halls some in even meet in KOC buildings. Where two or three are together in His name there is He, even in a bar.
We carry sin though we're saved - I'm not disputing that. My point is that the Christian can't serve two masters. You can't be in love with the world and still serve Christ.
"Carnal Christians" are those who are ok with their sin, and see nothing wrong with immersing themselves in worldliness - sinning presumptuously in the face of Grace.
Romans 17? Have they added a new chapter?
And 1 Cor 3:17 actually proves my point.
Yours is simply a faulty analysis, imo.
Making church a more people friendly place and then ensuring that the gospel is shared is no different than Wal-Mart making sure its stores are people friendly places and then ensuring that merchandise is available for purchase.
There is no element of bait and switch at all.
for review.
Again, it's the means in which one makes it friendly. If you're using fleshly desires, lights, music and gizmos, then you're presenting a false front in "doing whatever it takes" to get them through the door. You don't "lure" people with friendliness - you lure them with objects and shiny things. I have yet to be in an unfriendly church.
And no one has still answered my earlier question. Is it true or is it untrue that one of the first steps in Warren's PDC model is to survey the unchurched in order to find out what they dont' like about going to church - and then alter your services to reflect that?
If true, how can you look at that as anything other than appealing to the fleshly desires of the unchurched in order to "get them in the door"?
If true, what has now become the focus of church? Bribing the unsaved, or whorshipping the Lord in reverence, awe, and glory?
1) "Come join us - we have loud music and coffee! Heck, wear sweat-pants! It'll be like you're at home, only we might mention God's name a few times."
or
2) "Come join us in humbly praising our Holy and Righteous Creator and confessing our sins"
In Church-Marketing, you're selling a product. In evangelism, you're convicting sin in Spirit and Truth.
So it is bait and switch if you offer a warm smile and a cup of joe to visitors to your church? It's bait and switch if you offer a nice friendly environment where a vistor can feel welcome?
That's pretty sad. I guess some Churches are unwelcoming and dour. I suspect dour people love to be in that environment. It's no wonder they leave when their churches become welcoming and friendly. When their dour experience fades, then they have to go elsewhere to relive the experience.
The Church is, by definition, set apart.
Show me the scripture that says that "the Church" is "a place".
I am sure that you already know this. Bait and switch means that you are lured (compelled) to come to a store for an item - usually a cheap one - and they don't have that item, so they try to sell you a more expensive one. This is done because it is not likely you would have purchased the more expensive, higher quality one to begin with.
I think the reason that ItsOurTimeNow used the analogy is this. The seeker churches that promote a feel good, "friendly" environment are truly baiting and switching if they are preaching the gospel of Christ Jesus, because the gospel is offensive to those who are not saved. The gospel, the power unto salvation is not pleasant - it exposes our sin and our flesh so that we may turn from our own ways and desires and put our trust in God, loving Him above our own self. The first step as we all will acknowledge is that we must see our ugly horrid sin and admit that we are not able to deliver/save ourselves in order to truly repent. And anyone who truly knows that Lord knows that is not pleasant. And that it just isn't a friendly, atmosphere, feel-goody experience. (But the peace that passes all understanding when then we stand in His grace because of His forgivenes is better than any earthly comfort and desire!) So to invite someone in where they think they will have a warm, fuzzy, comfortable experience and then they are confronted with their sinful nature is a bait and switch. The cheap low quality lure to proposing the most highly paid, perfect quality.
On the other hand, if they are not really preaching the gospel, but the watered down, God is good, God love you truncated version of the gospel then it really isn't a bait and switch. But it is much worse.
Jesus offered a free lunch to 5000 people and when it was all over he preached a sermon.
A lot of these churches you denigrate offer some smiles, some coffee, and perhaps some food and then they preach a sermon.
What does your church offer to visitors? Do they get a smile, a hug, a cup of joe, a meal? Or do they get a look of suspicion, a cold shoulder and a hearty good bye?
Marlowe, you yourself called it an "experience" to be promised (meaning the focus is on the person and not Christ), and said there is no harm in amusing the goats.
And again, I said there's nothing wrong in being friendly. That's not in the debate. What we're debating are the worldly means with which people are being "lured" into the church. Music, games, commerce, "you're ok - I'm ok", etc.
Please feel free to re-read my post yesterday on this subject (right after your cornfield comments).
I'm not in the habit of debating in circles, and really there's nothing more I can say on the topic, unless you care to answer the direct question I've asked you 3 times now.
Oh, and am I correct in assuming the "children" points are settled now, or is that still open? You didn't respond to my post regarding that.
There is no bait and switch. We are SUPPOSED to be a place where the love of God is shed abroad. (Beloved, let us love one another.)
A church is to practice the love of Christ and to preach the gospel of Christ.
What is bait and switch would be anyplace where they proclaim themselves Christian, and a person arrives who is NOT greeted, who is NOT made to feel welcome, who is NOT introduced to the gospel in every conceivable manner at the church's disposition.
As Marlowe says, there are some pretty "dour" places out there.....grim people, grim relating, grim outlook, grim proclamation, and grim grimmaces.
Where in the bible does it discuss the proper attire to wear to a church building? Am I allowed to pray in my underwear, or must I put on a suit before I approach God in prayer?
>>Jesus offered a free lunch to 5000 people and when it was all over he preached a sermon.<<
Another bad example. They had been with him all day and they were hungry. The miracle was a sign to show his authority and compassion. We, therefore, are called to be just as compassionate in helping the needy.
Feeding a hungry person lunch doesn't compare to bribing them with rock music and fooseball tables just to get them to come. I'm really surprised you can't see this very obvious difference.
By appealing to worldly desires, you're making the church "experience" conditional based on the churches 'features', not on the Word of God.
>>What does your church offer to visitors? Do they get a smile, a hug, a cup of joe, a meal? Or do they get a look of suspicion, a cold shoulder and a hearty good bye?<<
We've been over this - and your line of questioning is downright silly.
I see nothing wrong with a church having musical programs.
I see nothing wrong with a church having places for people to buy anything from books to coffee.
I see nothing wrong with a church preaching a message "How to get OK with God." (Beyond that 'transactional analysis' is an early version of counseling which today might be grouped in the narrative field; the point of which is to get people to reframe their own self-story. This is necessary with many people inclined toward defeatism and depression because they are so hard on themselves they built a story about their lives that ignores positive things that also have happened to them.)
I see nothing wrong with a Christian therapist using any appropriate understanding gleaned from the narrative schools of indiv and family therapy.
Jesus was talking about attitude. The person who wrote that so-called "childish" song undoubtedly wrote it from their heart. You seem to be too mature in the faith to appreciate it, but the person who wrote it obviously had the heart and the attitude of a child.
For all we know the person who wrote it could not think above that level. Is the heartfelt song of a retarted person less valuable or important or worthy of respect than the heartfelt song of a memeber of the intelligensia? Must everything be on your spiritual level to be considered reverent?
What was your answer?
BTW I'm still waiting for that scripture. When can I expect it?
Please refer all future questions to the re-reading of posts 270, 427, 412, 408, and 403. I'm not interested in repeating myself.
Conditional worship. Once you establish a Worship Experience Based on Comfort, that becomes the condition for future worship.
There's nothing wrong in wearing jeans or sweats to church, if it's the best that you have ("Give of your best to the master"). The point is, if someone is saying "UNLESS I can wear sweatpants, I won't go.", then the problem is their motives. That's the attitude of conditional worship that the seeker-sensitive folks perpetuate because they're winning people to fleshly comforts.
Unless the church has a fooseball table and daycare, I won't go.
Unless the church has jump-in-the-aisle music, I won't go.
If I can't drink a coke during the service, I won't go.
Please re-read my post #270 for further reference.
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