The Earthly Father: What if Mary wasn't a virgin?

Slate ^ | Dec. 22, 2005 | The Rev. Chloe Breyer

[hiho hiho]

Can Jesus be the son of God and Joseph?

At Christmas, Christians celebrate the birth of God's only son. Some believers, however, wonder if Jesus Christ is God's son only. The ancient "illegitimacy tradition" and its modern proponents propose that Jesus may have had a human father. That idea upsets one of the central mysteries of the Christian faith—the virgin conception. But it's entirely in keeping with more essential tenets: Jesus' role as the Messiah, and God's love for the poor and downtrodden. What's more, the illegitimacy tradition responds to many strange utterances about Jesus' birth in the Scriptures themselves.

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Can a loyal Christian believe that Christ was not born of a biological virgin? Perhaps it's worth posing a different question: Why is church authority so intent upon Mary's virginity as a historical fact? Would Jesus be any less God's son if he had an earthly father? The central message of the Gospel is that God raised up and redeemed his servant from death by crucifixion—the Roman style of execution reserved for the lowest of the low. Why couldn't God have sent the same message of divine solidarity with the world's outcasts by making a Messiah out of a man whose conception was also taboo?

[sauropod]

The central message of the Gospel is that God raised up and redeemed his servant from death by crucifixion—the Roman style of execution reserved for the lowest of the low.

It is also a central message of the Gospel that Jesus was born without sin, of a virgin.

Disbelieve that and you might as well just throw the Book away.

This broad's lineage gives it away.

[Gamecock]

Which doesn't prove that she wasn't there.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>I pray that someday you will understand the Holy Word of G-d as G-d plainly intended it

C>Who authorized you to tell her, or me, or anyone, how God "plainly intended" Scripture to be understood?

If you say, "the Holy Spirit," I'd like to see some objective proof for your claim.

98 posted on 12/27/2005 10:37:20 AM MST by Campion

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed
and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness,

2 TIMOTHY 3:17 so that the man of God may be
thoroughly equipped for every good work.

That should be good enough ?

b'shem Y'shua

[AnAmericanMother]

Or she might have used it on her deathbed.

I think that is the construction that is being (mis)used in the case of the BVM. It was unknown in the 17th c.

I'm not and have never been a Sola Scriptura person. How can one be? The Bible doesn't define itself. The "Scriptures" referred to in 2nd Timothy weren't the Bible as it exists today, in fact given the time and place they were almost certainly the Septuagint . . . . which contains books not in the modern Protestant Bible.

[AnAmericanMother]

Well, I knew John Wesley was a good fellow! < g >

(I married the grandson of a Methodist preacher, but he's a Catholic too now.)

[gbcdoj]

Why in the world are modern Protestants so obsessed with proving that the Blessed Virgin Mary was not a perpetual virgin?

25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

25 "Till she brought forth her firstborn son"... From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.

Scripture teaches that the Blessed Virgin took a vow of virginity before her marriage, which she never broke. See Ezekiel 44:2-3a (allegorical), St. Luke 1:27, 34 and St. John 19:26-27:

Her virginity also itself was on this account more pleasing and accepted, in that it was not that Christ being conceived in her, rescued it beforehand from a husband who would violate it, Himself to preserve it; but, before He was conceived, chose it, already dedicated to God, as that from which to be born. This is shown by the words which Mary spake in answer to the Angel announcing to her her conception; "How," saith she, "shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. (St. Augustine, On Holy Virginity, 4)

[Uri’el-2012]

Why in the world are modern Protestants so obsessed with proving that the Blessed Virgin Mary was not a perpetual virgin?

You frame the inversion of the question.

I don't care nor is it important to me that Miriam remained a virgin after the birth of Y'shua.

Jerome introduced many errors into Christianity, this is one of them.

"How," saith she, "shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. (St. Augustine, On Holy Virginity, 4)

Very pious, but unsubstantiated. Augustine introduced many errors as well.

b'shem Y'shua

[RobbyS]

I don't believe it was practiced in Judaism by the time of Jesus. The story was that Joseph was a widower.

[RobbyS]

If she wasn't, then that takes away from the singularity of Jesus. Plus it lends support that the birth of Jesus was like that of Heracles, making him a demi-god: half human and half god. The Christian doctrine is that he was truly God and truly man.

[rmlew]

I don't mean to piss you all off, but one could read the text in a diffent context and take a different position.
There were two forms of Betrothal. One was familian, ie an arrainged marriage.
The other occured when a man had consentual relations with a virgin. This was an engagement pledge.
Since Jesus is defined as being of the house of David, his Father must have also been of the house of David. It just so happens that Joseph fits this bill.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

I don't care how people rationalize it.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, or Christianity falls apart into syncretic paganism.

I believe what the Bible teaches, what the Church taught from the beginning.

You may, with my blessing, choose to believe what you want.

[Uri’el-2012]

There were two forms of Betrothal. One was familian, ie an arrainged marriage.
The other occured when a man had consentual relations with a virgin. This was an engagement pledge.

Since Jesus is defined as being of the house of David,
his Father must have also been of the house of David.
It just so happens that Joseph fits this bill.

111 posted on 12/27/2005 4:28:02 PM MST by rmlew

We understand that both Miriam and Joseph are of the house of David.

It also appears to have been an arranged marriage.

If we review Numbers 26, 27 & 36, Joshua & 1 CHRONICLES 7 and the story of Zelophehad's daughters
and their right to inherit their father's inheritance. If a daughter has no brothers she might inherit from her father
however if she married outside her tribe her inheritance would revert to the tribe at the year of Jubilee.

But if she married within her tribe ( i.e. Miriam and Joseph ) she, the daughter with no brothers
would inherit from her father forever and pass on, in this case, to her son the throne of King David.

b'shem Y'shua

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Christianity falls apart into syncretic paganism.

If the shoe fits...

[Knitting A Conundrum]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead;
the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit.

If you cannot honestly say you believe in these things, can you honestly say you are a Christian?

People may quibble about what the terms "the communion of saints," and the "holy catholic church" mean, but if you are a Christian, it comes with the territory that you:

Believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Believe he was born of Mary and the Holy Spirit, with no human biological father, because that is what the scriptures say.

Believe that he was born into a physical body, that he actually died from Crucifixion and was buried.

That he actually arose from the grave.

That he is God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, Begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.

That he died to save us.



If you can't say this and mean it, then you are a believer in Jesus the Rabbi, who was a good man, maybe a prophet, but whose body is lying in an unmarked location in Israel, and whose death was a sad example of power politics.

Or maybe you think him just another avatar of Godhead that keeps appearing in the world.

Or maybe you think something else.

But if you can't say Jesus is Lord when looking down the face of a revolver or the baseball bat they are getting ready to hit you with, or the wild lion they want to eat you, and know why you are saying it, and why it is precious, and why it is worth the cost, you may find the Jesus you acknowledge isn't worth living for day after day after day.

And if he's not God, why bother?

[tgambill]

She was not a "forever virgin"..just a short note, It was all about Jesus. He was born not of man, as man born of man and woman is born in original sin so the story goes. By Jesus being born of God's Spirit and Mary he was born not of sin, but sinless from the beginning. Very simple. People claim to see Mary, and this, that and the other..in Pizza's (sold for $25,000), grilled cheese sandwiche...($10,000+) and all over......I would suggest Angels do appear...but who knows......

[tgambill]

"The Muslims believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus, but they don't believe He was the Son of God."

**** :)) Yes, and they also believe that if they kill an infidel they will get a certain number of Virgins in Heaven...fact. Need I say more.....:)))

[tgambill]

"Anyway, if you really understood the unspeakably intimate relationship that Mary had with God in order to become the mother of His Son, --- well, how could Joseph sleep with her after that? It would be like touching the Ark of the Covenant. He would tremble even to think it. And it seems gross and offensive that God who "begot" Jesus in the womb of Mary, would say to St. Joseph, "Here, I had her and I'm through with her; you can have her now."

**** Joseph was told about the coming birth by an Angel. You are thinking as a Human of today and not of a people that reverened God and felt blessed. I'm sure he had no problem sleeping with his wife after that.....The Bible is true to its word without all these extra books, Da Vinci code, ET, lost and found scrolls recently, Jesus and Mary was Married, blah blah blah....all incorrect and designed to seed doubt.......it's actually humorous if it wasn't so obvious.....:)

[Diego1618]

The word used to describe Elizabeth isn't the usual Greek word for "cousin". It just means "relative".

The Greek word for cousin is "Anepsios" and is used in Colossians 4:10 describing Mark to be a cousin of Barnabas. The Greek word "Adelphos" means brother.

And the Gospels use adelphos to describe the relationship of Philip the Tetrarch to Herod, although secular history says that Philip was Herod's half-brother.

If Philip was a half brother to Herod....as James was to Jesus, then this would be a correct term to use. I have a brother myself (son of my Father) who has a different Mother. We are half brothers and I refer to him as my Brother. If he were the son of my Father's wife, having a Father by a previous marriage, he would be my step brother and I would then refer to him as a step brother since there would be no blood relationship.

The reason "Adelphos" is used instead of "Anepsios" in Matthew 12:46-47-48-49-50/13:55; Mark 3:31/6:3; John 2:12; & Acts 1:14 is because these are half brothers, the sons of Joseph and Mary, and not step brothers of Jesus....nor are they cousins.

There is a prophecy in Psalm 69:8-9 that tells of his brothers of the flesh. [I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons; for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.] And we see in John 2:17; [His disciples remembered that it is written: Zeal for your house will consume me.]

There is ample evidence in scripture to show that our Saviour had human siblings and to deny that is to deny the Word of God. There is also ample evidence showing the same in the writings of the early church as I pointed out in my post #48. This is another example of tradition being followed rather than scripture in some quarters.

[Cvengr]

Mary's lineage is from Nathan, while Joseph's was from Solomon. The spiritual seed through Solomon was broken, but the seed remained pure through Nathan. The Immaculate conception produced a holy birth with the male seed from the Holy Spirit, pure, and the female ovum from the lineage of Nathan through Mary. Our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus was born pure in body, soul and spirit.