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Are Catholics Born Again?
Catholic Educators ^ | Mark Brumley

Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer

“Have you been born again?” the Fundamentalist at the door asks the unsuspecting Catholic. The question is usually a segue into a vast doctrinal campaign that leads many ill-instructed Catholics out of the Catholic Church. How? By making them think there is a conflict between the Bible and the Catholic Church over being “born again.”

To be honest, most Catholics probably do not understand the expression “born again.” Yes, they believe in Jesus. And yes, they try to live Christian lives. They probably have some vague awareness that Fundamentalists think being “born again” involves a religious experience or “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.” Many cradle Catholics, too, have had their moments of closeness to God, even of joy over God's love and mercy. They may even have had “conversion experiences” of sorts, committing themselves to take their faith seriously and to live more faithfully as disciples of Jesus. But the cradle Catholic probably cannot pinpoint any particular moment in his life when he dropped to his knees and “accepted Jesus” for the first time. As far back as he can recall, he has believed, trusted and loved Jesus as Savior and Lord. Does that prove he has never been “born again”?

Not “the Bible way,” says the Fundamentalist. But the Fundamentalist is wrong there. He misunderstands what the Bible says about being “born again.” Unfortunately, few Catholics understand the biblical use of the term, either. As a result, pastors, deacons, catechists, parents and others responsible for religious education have their work cut out for them. It would be helpful, then, to review the biblical — and Catholic — meaning of the term “born again.”

"BORN AGAIN" THE BIBLE WAY

The only biblical use of the term “born again” occurs in John 3:3-5 — although, as we shall see, similar and related expressions such as “new birth” and ,regeneration” occur elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, 23). In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” The Greek expression translated “born again” (gennathei anothen) also means “born from above.” Jesus, it seems, makes a play on words with Nicodemus, contrasting earthly life, or what theologians would later dub natural life (“what is born of flesh”), with the new life of heaven, or what they would later call supernatural life (“what is born of Spirit”).

Nicodemus' reply: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” (John 3:4). Does he simply mistake Jesus to be speaking literally or is Nicodemus himself answering figuratively, meaning, “How can an old man learn new ways as if he were a child again?” We cannot say for sure, but in any case Jesus answers, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.”' (John 3:5-7).

Here Jesus equates “born again” or “born from above” with “born of water and the Spirit.” If, as the Catholic Church has always held, being “born of water and the Spirit” refers to baptism, then it follows that being “born again” or “born from above” means being baptized.

Clearly, the context implies that born of “water and the Spirit” refers to baptism. The Evangelist tells us that immediately after talking with Nicodemus, Jesus took his disciples into the wilderness where they baptized people (John 3:22). Furthermore, water is closely linked to the Spirit throughout John's Gospel (for instance, in Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:9-13) and in the Johannine tradition (cf. 1 John 5:7). It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that John the Evangelist understands Jesus' words about being “born again” and “born of water and the Spirit” to have a sacramental, baptismal meaning.

OTHER VIEWS OF "BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT"

Fundamentalists who reject baptismal regeneration usually deny that “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 refers to baptism. Some argue that “water” refers to the “water of childbirth.” On this view, Jesus means that unless one is born of water (at his physical birth) and again of the Spirit (in a spiritual birth), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

A major problem with this argument, however, is that while Jesus does contrast physical and spiritual life, he clearly uses the term “flesh” for the former, in contrast to “Spirit” for the latter. Jesus might say, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of flesh and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” — though it would be obvious and absurdly redundant to say that one must be born (i.e., born of flesh) in order to be born again (i.e., born of the Spirit). But using “born of water and the Spirit” to mean “born of the flesh and then of the Spirit” would only confuse things by introducing the term “water” from out of nowhere, without any obvious link to the term “flesh.” Moreover, while the flesh is clearly opposed to the Spirit and the Spirit clearly opposed to the flesh in this passage, the expression “born of water and the Spirit” implies no such opposition. It is not “water” vs. “the Spirit,” but “water and the Spirit.”

Furthermore, the Greek of the text suggests that “born of water and the Spirit” (literally “born of water and spirit”) refers to a single, supernatural birth over against natural birth (“born of the flesh”). The phrase “of water and the Spirit” (Greek, ek hudatos kai pneumatos) is a single linguistical unit. It refers to being “born of water and the Spirit,” not “born of water” on the one hand and “born of the Spirit” on the other.

Another argument used by opponents of baptismal regeneration: “born of water and the Spirit” refers, correspondingly, to the baptism of John (being “born of water”) and the baptism of the Spirit (being “born of ... the Spirit”), which John promised the coming Messiah would effect. Thus, on this view, Jesus says, “Unless a man is born of water through John's baptism and of the Spirit through my baptism, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

We have already seen that, according to the Greek, “born of water and the Spirit” refers to a single thing, a single spiritual birth. Thus, the first half of the phrase cannot apply to one thing (John's baptism) and the second half to something else entirely (Jesus' baptism). But even apart from the linguistical argument, if “born of water” refers to John's baptism, then Jesus is saying that in order to be “born again” or “born from above” one must receive John's baptism of water (“born of water ...”) and the Messiah's baptism of the Spirit (“. . . and Spirit”). That would mean only those who have been baptized by John could enter the kingdom of God—which would drastically reduce the population of heaven. In fact, no one holds that people must receive John's baptism in order to enter the Kingdom — something now impossible. Therefore being “born of water . . .” cannot refer to John's baptism.

The most reasonable explanation for “born of water and the Spirit,” then, is that it refers to baptism. This is reinforced by many New Testament texts linking baptism, the Holy Spirit and regeneration. At Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descends upon him as He comes up out of the water (cf. John 1:25-34; Matt 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22). Furthermore, what distinguishes John's baptism of repentance in anticipation of the Messiah from Christian baptism, is that the latter is a baptism with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:31; Acts 1:4-5).

Consequently, on Pentecost, Peter calls the Jews to “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins” and promises that they will “receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38), thus fulfilling the promise of John. Peter clearly teaches here that the “water baptism,” to which he directs the soon-to-be converts, forgives sins and bestows the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism, then, is no mere external, repentance-ritual with water, but entails an inner transformation or regeneration by the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant; it is a “new birth,” a being “born again” or “born from above.”

In Romans 6:3, Paul says, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (RNAB). Baptism, says Paul, effects union with the death and resurrection of Christ, so that through it we die and rise to new life, a form of “regeneration.”

According to Titus 3:5, God “saved us through the washing of regeneration (paliggenesias) and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that the text refers only to the “washing (loutrou) of regeneration” rather than the “baptism of regeneration.” But baptism is certainly a form of washing and elsewhere in the New Testament it is described as a “washing away of sin.” For example, in Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling upon his name.” The Greek word used for the “washing away of sins” in baptism here is apolousai, essentially the same term used in Titus 3:5. Furthermore, since “washing” and “regeneration” are not ordinarily related terms, a specific kind of washing — one that regenerates — must be in view. The most obvious kind of washing which the reader would understand would be baptism, a point even many Baptist scholars, such as G.R. Beasley-Murray, admit. (See his book Baptism in the New Testament.)

In 1 Peter 1:3, it is stated that God has given Christians “a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” The term “new birth” (Gk, anagennasas, “having regenerated”) appears synonymous with “born again” or “regeneration.” According to 1 Peter 1:23, Christians “have been born anew (Gk, anagegennamenoi, “having been regenerated”) not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God.” From the word of the Gospel, in other words.

Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that since the “new birth” mentioned in 1 Peter 1:3 and 23 is said to come about through the Word of God, being “born again” means accepting the Gospel message, not being baptized. This argument overlooks the fact that elsewhere in the New Testament accepting the gospel message and being baptized are seen as two parts of the one act of commitment to Christ.

In Mark 16:16, for instance, Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” “Believing”, i.e., accepting the Gospel, entails accepting baptism, which is the means by which one “puts on Christ” (Gal. 3:27) and is buried and raised with him to new life (Rom 6:3-5; Gal 2:12). Acts 2:41 says of the Jewish crowd on Pentecost, “Those who accepted his message were baptized . . .” It seems reasonable to conclude that those whom 1 Peter 1:23 describes as “having been born anew” or regenerated through the “living and abiding word of God” were also those who had been baptized. Thus, being “born of water and the Spirit” and being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God” describe different aspects of one thing — being regenerated in Christ. Being “born again” (or “from above”) in “water and the Spirit” refers to the external act of receiving baptism, while being “born anew” refers to the internal reception in faith of the Gospel (being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God”).

Moreover, baptism involves a proclamation of the Word, which is part of what constitutes it (i.e., “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”). To accept baptism is to accept the Word of God. There is no need, then, to see the operation of the Word of God in regeneration as something opposed to or separated from baptism.

Some Fundamentalists also object that being “born again” through baptismal regeneration contradicts the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Implicit here is the idea that Christian baptism is a mere “human work” done to earn favor before God. In fact, Christian baptism is something that is done to one (one is baptized — passive), not something one does for oneself. The one who baptizes, according to the Bible, is Jesus Himself by the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 1:33). It makes no more sense to oppose baptism and faith in Christ to one another as means of regeneration than it does to oppose faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to one another. There is no either/or here; it is both/and.

THE CATHOLIC VIEW OF BEING "BORN AGAIN"

Following the New Testament use of the term, the Catholic Church links regeneration or being “born again” in the life of the Spirit to the sacrament of baptism (CCC, nos. 1215,1265-1266). Baptism is not a mere human “work” one does to “earn” regeneration and divine sonship; it is the work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, which, by grace, washes away sin and makes us children of God. It is central to the Catholic understanding of justification by grace. For justification is, as the Council of Trent taught, “a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ” (Session 6, chapter 4). Baptism is an instrumental means by which God graciously justifies — that is, regenerates — sinners through faith in Jesus Christ and makes them children of God.

Catholic teaching is not opposed to a “religious experience” of conversion accompanying baptism (of adults) — far from it. But such an “experience” is not required. What is required for baptism to be fruitful (for an adult) is repentance from sin and faith in Christ, of which baptism is the sacrament (CCC, no. 1253). These are grace-enabled acts of the will that are not necessarily accompanied by feelings of being “born again.” Regeneration rests on the divinely established fact of incorporation and regeneration in Christ, not on feelings one way or the other.

This point can be driven home to Evangelicals by drawing on a point they often emphasize in a related context. Evangelicals often say that the act of having accepted Christ as “personal Savior and Lord” is the important thing, not whether feelings accompany that act. It is, they say, faith that matters, not feelings. Believe by faith that Christ is the Savior and the appropriate feelings, they say, will eventually follow. But even if they do not, what counts is the fact of having taken Christ as Savior.

Catholics can say something similar regarding baptism. The man who is baptized may not “feel” any different after baptism than before. But once he is baptized, he has received the Holy Spirit in a special way. He has been regenerated and made a child of God through the divine sonship of Jesus Christ in which he shares. He has been buried with Christ and raised to new life with Him. He has objectively and publicly identified himself with Jesus' death and resurrection. If the newly baptized man meditates on these things, he may or may not “feel” them, in the sense of some subjective religious experience. Nevertheless, he will believe them to be true by faith. And he will have the benefits of baptism into Christ nonetheless.

A "BORN AGAIN" CHRISTIAN?

When Fundamentalists call themselves “born again Christians,” they want to stress an experience of having entered into a genuine spiritual relationship with Christ as Savior and Lord, in contradistinction to unbelief or a mere nominal Christianity. As we have seen, though, the term “born again” and its parallel terms “new birth” and “regeneration” are used by Jesus and the New Testament writers to refer to the forgiveness of sins and inner renewal of the Holy Spirit signified and brought about by Christ through baptism.

How, then, should a Catholic answer the question, “Have you been born again?” An accurate answer would be, “Yes, I was born again in baptism.” Yet leaving it at that may generate even more confusion. Most Fundamentalists would probably understand the Catholic to mean, “I'm going to heaven simply because I'm baptized.” In other words, the Fundamentalist would think the Catholic is “trusting in his baptism” rather than Christ, whereas the informed Catholic knows it means trusting in Christ with whom he is united in baptism.

The Catholic, then, should do more than simply point to his baptism; he should discuss his living faith, trust and love of Christ; his desire to grow in sanctity and conformity to Christ; and his total dependence on Christ for salvation. These are integral to the new life of the Holy Spirit that baptism bestows. When the Fundamentalist sees the link between baptism and the Holy Spirit in the life of his Catholic neighbor, he may begin to see that St. Paul was more than figurative when he wrote, “You were buried with Christ in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col 2:12).


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: baptism; bible; bornagain; catholics; scripture; spirit
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To: Porterville

I was raised in the Southern Bible Belt in the most extreme Pentecostal, Assembly of God, and Southern Baptist environment.

Elmer Gantry has nothing on the things I've seen. Faith healing, talking in tongues (with translations), dancing in the spirit, people falling down in faints, tent revivals, altar calls, fasting for visions...everything but snake handling, I think. One time I was schlepped through an Oklahoma tornado outbreak to hear Marjoe Gortner, the boy preacher ("Glory Jee to Beezus") preach.

Then I spent about three decades wandering in the fever swamps of rebellion against God, whose infinite patience and mercy finally led me to the faith my mother had fallen away from: the Catholic Church.

I think I speak with some knowledge on the subjects of being "born again" and faith healing.

IMO, sometimes it's just as real as it can get.

That sort of preaching is designed to send one into raptures of strong emotion. Sometimes sinners do turn back to God on a permanent basis; sometimes it turns out to be just an emotional high, and they "backslide."

Sometimes people really are healed. I have no idea what the proportion is.

A lot of Protestants seem to think that being "born again" necessarily involves being swept up in one of those Elmer Gantry revival scenes, answering an altar call, and saying specific words.

I don't think those things are required, and I think you can be healed through private prayer just as well as by a television faith healer.


41 posted on 11/11/2005 7:25:41 AM PST by dsc
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To: bremenboy

You were once a liberal??? Well, at least you have corrected that - Thank God.

Let's try to correct the rest. What are your issues (IN BRIEF!!) with Catholic and Orthodox baptisms?

You can't honestly believe that no one was baptised correctly for 1400 years or more.


42 posted on 11/11/2005 7:25:49 AM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: NYer; All
Without the Catholic Church being established by Jesus in 33 A.D.....Christianity, The Bible, and Born Again Christians of any faith would not exist.

For those who need to re-educate themselves to the truth here is a simple timeline in PDF format Link to PDF formate Catholic Church timeline

43 posted on 11/11/2005 7:30:37 AM PST by all4one (The Islamic Homicide Bombers are really helping to spread the message about the real nature of Islam)
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To: NYer

**Are Catholics Born Again?**

Absolutely through the Sacrament of Baptism!

(Whether received as an infant or as an adult!)


44 posted on 11/11/2005 7:30:49 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
So you must be baptized to be "born again"? I guess Paul never got that memo:

"I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius" 1Cr 1:14
and we won't even get into the thief on the cross.

45 posted on 11/11/2005 7:42:56 AM PST by ZGuy
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To: ZGuy
we won't even get into the thief on the cross

That's called a "baptism of desire."

46 posted on 11/11/2005 7:46:53 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: NYer
Protestants do have a Rite of Communion.
47 posted on 11/11/2005 7:47:30 AM PST by Dark Skies (" For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. " Matthew 6:21)
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To: 57chevypreterist

"Now I am a born again Christian, an adherent of the Reformed faith, and a disciple of Messiah Jesus"
_________________________________

Shout it from the mountain top brother! Amen

Again I say Amen!


48 posted on 11/11/2005 7:52:55 AM PST by wmfights (lead, follow, or get out of the way)
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To: 57chevypreterist
Blah blah blah.
I grew up Catholic, spent 16 years in Catholic school and university, and was proudly Catholic for 32 years. NOT ONCE in all that time, did anyone ever explain to me how I could FOR SURE have eternal life.
Now I am a born again Christian, an adherent of the Reformed faith, and a disciple of Messiah Jesus.
Do you know FOR SURE that you are going to Heaven when you die?
If you don't understand how to get rid of your sin (you can't, by the way, but Jesus can), then you have an eternal problem to confront. Don't trust in what YOU do, rather trust in what Jesus did FOR you.
Blessings!

And you STILL don't know if you are going to heaven. So what have you gained by dumping the Catholic Church?

Mass? No, you've lost that.
Communion, His body, blood, soul and divinity....every day (except Good Friday) of our short lives? No, you've lost that too.
What have you gained? I dunno. I only know what you've lost.

If this (holy communion) isn't about what Jesus did for us/me, then you missed the entire point of Easter: passion, death and resurrection of the Son of God.
How could any Catholic NOT know that?
How could any sane Catholic NOT take the daily (when possible) opportunity to actually partake of our Lord's gift to us -- "Do this in memory of Me"?

You gave all that up for the ONE DAY A WEEK Sunday sermon and singing. Talk about your "blah blah blah."

Reformed? That's interesting. Who told Luther, Calvin, et al, that "reform" -- that is, getting away from holy communion and Mass -- were the right thing to do?
That the papacy was held by corrupt men for a few popes didn't make the papacy -- Peter, the rock Jesus chose to built His church -- corrupt for all time.
That some INSTITUTIONAL practices were horrible did negate the entire institution.
It would be like condemning the institution of marriage because some marriages are failures.

These "reforms" were decisions of angry men and women, not decisions from Jesus. HIS decisions were made for all time, not just until some angry people decided to "reform" what they didn't like.

You've lost the Mass, that is, holy communion, the body, blood, soul and divinity of your GOD, Lord and Savior.
That is a huge and sad loss for you. Perhaps it was because of a wife and her born-again faith. Just a guess. If that would tear you away from the divine supper, then perhaps there just isn't enough faith in you to believe in the holy supper. Faith IS a gift.
"Blessings"? Small potatoes. I would wish you back at the communion table, partaking of Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity. That isn't a small word or token -- it's the essence of our God-given life, the blessing of all time for all souls.

Dominus vobiscum.

49 posted on 11/11/2005 7:53:35 AM PST by starfish923 ( It's never right to do wrong. Socrates)
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To: ZGuy
So you must be baptized to be "born again"? I guess Paul never got that memo:
"I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius" 1Cr 1:14

Good work ripping that out of context, and then attributing a ridiculous meaning to it. Try reading what the Apostle says about baptism in Romans and Galatians. "For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:26-7).

I thank God that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius. "Why are you elate at having baptized, when I for my part even give thanks that I have not done so!" Thus saying, by a kind of divine art he does away with their swelling pride upon this point; not with the efficacy of the baptism, (God forbid,) but with the folly of those who were puffed up at having been baptizers: first, by showing that the Gift is not theirs; and, secondly, by thanking God therefore. For Baptism truly is a great thing: but its greatness is not the work of the person baptizing, but of Him who is invoked in the Baptism: since to baptize is nothing as regards man's labor, but is much less than preaching the Gospel. Yea, again I say, great indeed is Baptism, and without baptism it is impossible to obtain the kingdom. Still a man of no singular excellence is able to baptize, but to preach the Gospel there is need of great labor.

He states also the reason, why he giveth thanks that he had baptized no one. What then is this reason? Lest anyone should say that ye were baptized into my own name. Why, did he mean that they said this in those other cases? Not at all; but, "I fear," saith he, "lest the disease should proceed even to that. For if, when insignificant persons and of little worth baptize, a heresy ariseth, had I, the first announcer of Baptism, baptized many, it was likely that they forming a party, would not were unsound in this respect" and subjoining, I baptized also the house of Stephanas, he again drags down their pride, saying besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For by this he signifies that neither did he seek much to enjoy the honor accruing hereby from the multitude, nor did he set about this work for glory's sake.

St. John Chrysostom


50 posted on 11/11/2005 7:54:53 AM PST by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: Pyro7480; ZGuy

Actually there's dispute on whether that was a baptism of desire or whether the theif goes to paradise because Christ has not yet instituted the new covenant, none in the old testament were baptised are we to beleive they were denied salvation? Hardly, they lived under the old law, the theif should fall into that category.


51 posted on 11/11/2005 7:55:00 AM PST by x5452
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To: Dark Skies
Protestants do have a Rite of Communion.

Do they take that passage from John literally?

52 posted on 11/11/2005 7:55:21 AM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

I do...I can't speak for others.


53 posted on 11/11/2005 7:58:57 AM PST by Dark Skies (" For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. " Matthew 6:21)
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To: x5452; Pyro7480
none in the old testament were baptised are we to beleive they were denied salvation? Hardly, they lived under the old law, the theif should fall into that category.

Excellent point! Isn't it for that reason that Jesus descended to the dead.

54 posted on 11/11/2005 8:03:00 AM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: gbcdoj

Johnny hits the mark again.


55 posted on 11/11/2005 8:03:15 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Dark Skies
You believe the bread and wine used in communion become the Body and Blood of Christ? Cause that's what "literally" means. "This is my body."

SD

56 posted on 11/11/2005 8:03:43 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: NYer

Hence, the "harrowing of hell."


57 posted on 11/11/2005 8:04:16 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Dark Skies
I do...I can't speak for others.

Then you believe in transubstantion?

58 posted on 11/11/2005 8:06:54 AM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

Yes


59 posted on 11/11/2005 8:11:22 AM PST by Dark Skies (" For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. " Matthew 6:21)
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To: starfish923
These "reforms" were decisions of angry men and women, not decisions from Jesus. HIS decisions were made for all time, not just until some angry people decided to "reform" what they didn't like.

Perfect description of the Reformation. Not even their admiters deny that Luther and Calvin were angry men. although they would say thast the anger was totally justified. But maybe Judas was angry with Jesus, that HE was not the messiah whom Judas (and perhaps the other members of the Twelve) expected.

60 posted on 11/11/2005 8:11:45 AM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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