Posted on 10/01/2005 10:13:50 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day
Foster: The problem today is that evangelism has reached the point of diminishing returns. I talk with people and they say, "What am I to be converted to? I look at Christians and statistically they aren't any different." You want to be able to point to people who are really different.
Willard: … and people who are running a bank or a school, or functioning in government, maybe even in the military. What we need is more examples of people who actually have character that is Christlike. Isaiah brought up this problem of people whose lips are "near me" but their heart is "hard toward me"; Jesus also talked about it. Spiritual formation is for developing a heart that is one with God—whether you're in a lush hotel suite or down on the street. The business of the church is to bring that about.
A heart that is one with God— sounds like a tall order.
Willard: We're not talking about perfection; we're talking about doing a lot better. Forget about perfection. We're just talking about learning to do the things that Jesus is favorable toward and doing it out of a heart that has been changed into his.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
But it's likely you've heard of them anyway.
The founder of Renovaré is Richard J. Foster, Quaker author of Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth, a classic named by CT as one of the top ten books of the 20th century. Another luminary at Renovaré is Dallas Willard, a Southern Baptist, professor of philosophy at the University of South California in Los Angeles, and author of The Divine Conspiracy: Recovering Our Hidden Life in God, which was CT's Book of the Year in 1999.
The two men recently collaborated on The Renovaré Spiritual Formation Bible (HarperSanFrancisco), which they edited with The Message's Eugene Peterson and Old Testament scholar Walter Brueggemann.
Foster and Willard sat down with CT associate editor Agnieszka Tennant for a rare interview at a Renovaré conference in Denver to explain the difference between spiritual formation and its imitations.
Unfortunately, Christianity Today articles have to be excerpted. Please click on the link to read the whole interview. These are two of the smartest, finest fellows in the Christian world today. I think Dallas Willard should be required reading in most Christian churches, including my own.
Well, when the divorce rate among Christians begins to go below that of the national per capita average, maybe there will be some hope.
Christians excuse too much. That is why Christians are so much like the world.
Selfishness rules their hearts.
Yes, I think pride and selfishness are two of the biggest stumbling blocks any of us face and have to overcome.
Divorce is a symptom of a much deeper malaise.
Could it stem from a culture of saying, rather than doing? In other words, it's easy to say, "I'm a Christian," but it's much harder to actually strive to live like Christ, act as He would act, speak as He would speak, love as He would love. So much harder that most of us never even try? We're content being hearers only of the word, and not doers?
Divorce is a symptom of the cancer that feminism & women's LIB has created.
That's true. No man has ever mistreated his wife in such a way that she had to leave the marriage to protect herself or her children.
It's true. A lot of people who call themselves Christian really aren't. They just like the sound of it or like the trust that's connected with the title. They don't go to church, they don't pray, and they don't live by the Holy Bible. But, since they live in a Christian country, they pretend to be Christian. Look at Bill and Hillary Clinton, for example. They both claim to be Christians, but they support the most liberal and anti-Christian policies they can find. They just want to call themselves Christian to gain the trust of unguarded voters who don't really think things through.
I think that's the reason that the numbers for "Christian" divorce is up so high. A very significant portion of the numbers aren't actually Christians. They're liberals or agnostics who just say they're Christian because they like to use it as a title.
Or, perhaps it's better to say, it's not enough to profess a belief in Christ, one must also be striving to follow and become like Christ.
You forgot your < /sarcasm> tag, I think.
The divorce rate among Christians will never again be below that of nonbelievers and will continue to grow larger percentage wise. There are two reasons for this. Not everyone who calls himself a Christian is in fact a Christian.
I'll rephrase it:
No man, in all known history, has ever mistreated his wife in such a way that she had to leave the marriage to protect herself or her children.
Really? No man has ever viciously, systematically physically or sexually abused his wife or his children? All men are sweet little angels, or perhaps, merely misguided? You've never read stories about animals who torture their family members? Who inflict upon innocent children and smaller, weaker women the most unspeakable acts of cruelty?
And these women should stay in these marriages...why, exactly?
Some people are unrepentant. Some people ARE evil. You're living in a fantasy world if you don't see that.
I am sorry, I thought the sarcasm was obvious.
I thought it was sarcasm at first, but then you restated the same outrrageous claim, once again, without giving any hint that you were being sarcastic. When you declare something like that twice, without indicating any hint of irony, you have to understand that people WILL take you at your word and think you are serious.
Sorry to jump all over you.
And at the same time there's this continual push to make church services attractive and 'seeker sensitive.'
"We look like the world, sound like the world, and even taste like the world (if you stop for a latte in the narthex)...but we're not really the world. Trust us on this one..."
Quaker and Fuller psychologist (holds a doctorate in pastoral counseling), Richard Foster is co-founder of Renovaré, and Professor of spiritual formation at Azusa Pacific University in Southern California. Foster became an ordained clergyman for the Society of Friends in 1967. He's held pastoral positions in 'Friends' churches since that time and became professor of theology and writer-in-residence, 1979 on, at Friends University in Wichita and adjunct professor at George Fox College, from 1974-1979. He is a member of the publications board of California Yearly Meeting of Friends. He obtained his B.A. from George Fox College and D.Th.P from Fuller Theological Seminary. Foster teaches all the techniques of the New Age such as quietism, mantras, centering, Buddhism, Yoga, T. M., the exercises of Ignatius of Loyola, Eastern religion and so on.
b'shem Y'shua
Here's a real-life example of what you're talking about. Name the church or organization that had this motto in 2004:
"Life is good. With God, it's better."
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