Posted on 07/13/2005 12:49:13 AM PDT by dsc
'K. I get your position. I don't buy it though. By the same logic, we shouldn't read thrillers or mystery novels because they've got murder or theft in them.
Neither do I. I think the Pope's remarks will have a net effect of a wash...
Something to note in Tolkien is that Elves, who are not human, use stuff that humans call "magic", but the Elves find the term puzzling, since to them it's not magic but technology.
At any rate, there's not much human magic and sorcery going on, which from a theological standpoint is actually rather important.
Gandalf and Sauron are actually angels. Of course angels have powers men don't have, for good or ill, and can use them.
Elves are a different species from humans, with a different creation. Elves aren't necromancers, but even if they do practice "magic", such magic is inherent to their natures. The Bible speaks to men, not Elves (or bats, which use mysterious sonar to find and trap bugs, or electric eels, who use their own form of "magic", natural to them).
It's not that angelic powers or the fact of being a spirit is not ok. It's that it's not ok for humans to boost their natural powers by trying to harness spirits. That's why Tolkienian magic does not fail the Christian test.
The magic in it is not human but Elvish or angelic.
Yes, M'am, you are right. But I have no problem with Harry. When my 4-1/2 year old can read well enough, and wants Potter...
One of 4 ways...
1. He'll be told to save for it using his allowance.
2. Make extra money doing extra chores around the house.
3. Birthday.
4. Christmas.
Most interesting.
There have been a lot of Christians who disapprove of reading any fiction or seeing any plays: they're made up, and that makes them lies!
So... I can read... what, exactly? Not about half the Old Testament, what with the murder and incest and stuff that's in there.
I agree some books just aren't necessary. I don't read horror, or romances, because I don't think they're good for me. Science fiction, or an Agatha Christie, entertain me and make me think. They haven't made me atheist or convinced me it's ok to murder, because I'm not a sponge. I don't form my life around whatever I last read or saw on tv.
Library?
Also, I don't approve of just giving kids whatever they want, but books are different. There should always be novels, biographies, and interesting non-fiction at a kid's fingertips.
If you think there's any occult in HP then you don't know what you're talking about.
That's not what I said, very typical deliberately misinterpretting what I say to "make" a point that doesn't exist. Try again without lying about what I said.
More LIES about what I said. I have no problem with parent doing their parental duty. I have no problem with people that don't want their kids reading HP or any other book for whatever reason they chose. What I have a problem with is people saying there's occult stuff in the series when there clearly is not. Now if you have something to say in response to what I'm ACTUALLY saying not what you are deceptively inserting into what I said I'm will to pay attention. But if all you've got is words to put into my mouth keep them to yourself.
It's been a while since I've touched the Silmarillion but I don't recall Gandalf and Sauron being the same species. Indeed, Gandalf and the rest of the Istari seem to be *less* than Sauron despite the fact that their purpose is to basically keep Sauron at bay (but maybe I misread that). Sauron, if I recall, was the second in command in terms of evil.
But like I said, I haven't touched the Silmarillion in a while...
Heh... well, fifteen years ago I was seven and didn't know what "homosexuality" was, so maybe so. If you mean "I think it's just jolly and ok", then no. I'm not more acclimatized.
Harry Potter has been huge for over six years. That's enough time for these oh-so-influenceable 12 to 14 year olds to grow up and start hitting real life. So where are all the new little pagans? Why aren't we reading weekly about demon worshippers setting fire to churches? There's no wiccan explosion out there.
I really and truly believe that God, in all his/her omnipotence, has no need for a sanctioned "cheering squad" on his behalf. I would even go so far as to say that DEMANDING worship from us is a bit arrogant. IMO, I would say that all he/she/it wants is for us to appreciate a good thing. Look at the sunset. Appreciate it. Say, "Gee, that was really cool! Thanks!" Sit by a stream on your lunch hour (if you can). Smell the air. Listen to nature. God is all around you. God is IN you. I've thought and prayed about this (prayer meaning meditation) and I keep getting the same answer.
And as far as HP goes, fer cryin out loud...Satan worship and practicing the occult have been going on a lot longer than the books have been around. One should be happy that their child is reading instead of whining about "Why can't I get a cell phone? Everyone else in my third grade class has one!" Okay, I'm off topic. Rant over.
BTW, God? That was a great sunset last night. Thanks.
Tolkien's story is throughly Catholic.
Rawlings stories are throughly pagan.
There's your difference.
The problem is most people these days think they are smarter than Satan, but this not the case. His is an angelic intellect different in quality as well as quantity. Ever trick a dog into doing something? How hard was it? Not very right? That's about as much trouble as it is for Satan to trick us.
Our only defense is to cling to Christ, who in His infinite mercy has given us a blueprint for living and provided us with the living Magisterium of His Church.
Two big falsehoods, there's no "they" with the mirror your discussing, it's a one of a kind item that shows a person their greatest desire; and that's not divination, divination is trying to find real data ususally from the future, the mirror in HP just shows a person what they want most in the world. And it's a very dangerous mirror and is eventually destroyed because people tend to get addicted to the "perfect" world they see in the mirror. No occult there.
Mirrors in the occult are primarily used for divination. Which isn't what the mirror you're talking about is used for. More stnadard magic mirrors in HP are basically video phones, also totally non-occult related.
You're saying the books lead people away from Christianity, that is condemning, and false.
Just remember - Dickens and Tolstoy are the meat and veggies, but kids like dessert too! You'll make sure he reads the classics, obviously, but if he doesn't love those, find something he does love. Reading must be fun, for a kid, first and foremost.
Of course they do. So they are subject to the exact same criticism you support of HP. Or would you like to try and distinguish them?
Corin, am I reading this correctly that Pope Ratzinger buys into this Harry Potter is witchcraft and evil stuff? I suddenly think less of him, if he does. Athough at least it doesn't seem like the issue is a large blip on his personal radar.
My opinion is that a Church which cannot allow imaginary wistful magic in children's books is working towards a gray and lifeless existence for humanity.
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