The vanishing bible

Catholic World News ^ | 11-19-2004

[gbcdoj]

Apparently Christ's death and resurection did not provide enough "reparation"?

Of course it did.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, III q. 49 a. 3

Whether men were freed from the punishment of sin through Christ's Passion?

Objection 1. It would seem that men were not freed from the punishment of sin by Christ's Passion. For the chief punishment of sin is eternal damnation. But those damned in hell for their sins were not set free by Christ's Passion, because "in hell there is no redemption" [Office of the Dead, Resp. vii]. It seems, therefore, that Christ's Passion did not deliver men from the punishment of sin.

Objection 2. Further, no punishment should be imposed upon them who are delivered from the debt of punishment. But a satisfactory punishment is imposed upon penitents. Consequently, men were not freed from the debt of punishment by Christ's Passion.

Objection 3. Further, death is a punishment of sin, according to Rm. 6:23: "The wages of sin is death." But men still die after Christ's Passion. Therefore it seems that we have not been delivered from the debt of punishment.

On the contrary, It is written (Is. 53:4): "Surely He hath borne our iniquities and carried our sorrows."

I answer that, Through Christ's Passion we have been delivered from the debt of punishment in two ways. First of all, directly--namely, inasmuch as Christ's Passion was sufficient and superabundant satisfaction for the sins of the whole human race: but when sufficient satisfaction has been paid, then the debt of punishment is abolished. In another way--indirectly, that is to say--in so far as Christ's Passion is the cause of the forgiveness of sin, upon which the debt of punishment rests.

Reply to Objection 1. Christ's Passion works its effect in them to whom it is applied, through faith and charity and the sacraments of faith. And, consequently, the lost in hell cannot avail themselves of its effects, since they are not united to Christ in the aforesaid manner.

Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 4,5), in order to secure the effects of Christ's Passion, we must be likened unto Him. Now we are likened unto Him sacramentally in Baptism, according to Rm. 6:4: "For we are buried together with Him by baptism into death." Hence no punishment of satisfaction is imposed upon men at their baptism, since they are fully delivered by Christ's satisfaction. But because, as it is written (1 Pt. 3:18), "Christ died" but "once for our sins," therefore a man cannot a second time be likened unto Christ's death by the sacrament of Baptism. Hence it is necessary that those who sin after Baptism be likened unto Christ suffering by some form of punishment or suffering which they endure in their own person; yet, by the co-operation of Christ's satisfaction, much lighter penalty suffices than one that is proportionate to the sin.

Reply to Objection 3. Christ's satisfaction works its effect in us inasmuch as we are incorporated with Him, as the members with their head, as stated above (1). Now the members must be conformed to their head. Consequently, as Christ first had grace in His soul with bodily passibility, and through the Passion attained to the glory of immortality, so we likewise, who are His members, are freed by His Passion from all debt of punishment, yet so that we first receive in our souls "the spirit of adoption of sons," whereby our names are written down for the inheritance of immortal glory, while we yet have a passible and mortal body: but afterwards, "being made conformable" to the sufferings and death of Christ, we are brought into immortal glory, according to the saying of the Apostle (Rm. 8:17): "And if sons, heirs also: heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ; yet so if we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified with Him."

[JHavard]

See, I wasn't born into it, though. The only thing I ever got from my Ma was a story about how the Catholic Church was only after money and they'd kick you out if you didn't return the donation envelopes.

I'd come home with the church school text book and we'd sit there and she'd make fun of it. She didn't understand why Catholics had to learn all this crap before First Communion.

I was taught that 'Catholics are mean'. And we kind of are. The most orthodox RC parishes don't even have greeters, for heaven's sakes!

How you remember your experiences is irrelevant, it’s what you came to accept as normal for Catholics that I’m referring to.

If you sat in school; for nine months and watched a Nun and others doing their signs of the cross, or going through their prayer beads, or saw them genuflect, or the way some dressed, it would become common place to you.

I attended mass with my wife years ago, and I couldn’t consecrate on the services because I couldn’t take my eyes off the rituals they were doing. If they don’t seem strange, then you have more Catholic background then you care to admit.

As a kid I was brought up in farm country, where almost everyone on the school bus smelled of the barn, but no one thought anything about it. As an adult I painted cars for 20 some years and breathed in paint fumes until I enjoyed the smell of Lacquer paints and primers.

Others would come in the shop, and cover their nose with a handkerchief, and run back out the door.

To this day, I still enjoy those nostalgic smells, and they bring back fond memories, but its because I had been accustomed to them when I was younger, even though at the time I didn’t realize it.

I would guess that 99% of those who end up Catholic have some form of Catholic custom in their background.

You don’t seem to think you had enough in yours to make a difference as to how you view Catholicism, but if you go back over it, I’m sure you’ll see why it was so easy for you to accept.

Unless nepotism, or who your parents or your relatives are, or what school you went to determines whether or not you become a believer in Christ, then the Catholic Church is going to stagnate, unless it reaches out to the rest of the unbelievers, and fulfills it commission.

It does seem that most of you would rather keep it in the family, but that’s not what Christ wanted. If you want to keep your candle under a basket, that’s fine, but don’t call it Catholic persecution when no one wants to come to you when God calls them, and your Church doesn’t welcome them unless they have a pedigree in your religion first.

Non Catholics Churches say, come as you are and the Holy Spirit will train you to be a Christian.
The Catholic Churches says, you must learn to be Catholic first, then you can become a Christian.

JH :)

[RobbyS]

Asa Catholic with Protestant background, I was happy when the Church put greater emphasis on the Bible after the Council, and gave it the close respect that the Reformers gave it. One must remember, however, that Luther made the Bible the rule of faith after he rejected the binding authority of the popes and bishops, the Councils, and the teachings of the Church Fathers. Furthermore he rejected the Latin Bible, falsely believing Erasmus's claim that Erasmus's Greek Bible was more authentic than the Vulgate.Luther, therefore, did not hesitate to establish his own canon and to interpret the Bible in terms of his own particular knowledge and religious experience. But Lither still believed that most of the books of the Bible were the authentic Word of God and objectively true. Many Catholic scholars go beyond Luther's rebellion and deny that the Bible has divine authority.

[JHavard]

Tsk, tsk JH.... "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism."

"Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

If there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, how can you say the Greek are the only true believers, or the Jews are the only true believers, or the Catholics are the only true believers?

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

JH :)

[Tamar1973]

There may be some factions of the Jewish faith that prays for the dead, or believes in some form of purification, but since each Jewish faith determines its own doctrine, and there is no hierarchy telling them what they must believe, that doesn't surprise me, but I don't think it can be called a part of the Jewish faith by a long shot.

All major Jewish sects (Orthodox, Reform, Conservative) with the exception of Messianic Jews do indeed pray for the dead indirectly by praying the Kaddish for them.

YITGADAL V'YITKADASH
SHMEH RABA'
B'ALMA DI VERA' KHIR'UTEH
V'YAMLIKH MALKHUTEH
B'CHAYYEYKHON U'VYOMEYKHON
U'VCHAYEY D'KHOL BEYT YISRAEL
BA'AGALA UVIZMAN KARIV
V'IMRU - AMEN
Y'HE SHMEH RABA' M'VARAKH L'ALAM
U'L'ALMEY 'ALMAIYA:
YITBARAKH V'YISHTABACH V'YITPAR
V'YITROMAM V'YITNASE' V'YITHADAR
V'YIT'ALEH V'YITHALAL
SHMEH D'KUDSHA' B'RICH HU
LE'ILA' (LE'ILA') MIN KOL BIRKHATA'
V'SHIRATA' TUSHB'CHATA' V'NECHEMATA'
DA'AMIRA B'ALMA'
V'IMRU - AMEN
Y'HE SHLAMA RABA' MIN SH'MAYA'
V'CHAYIM 'ALEYNU V'AL KOL YISRAEL
V'IMRU - AMEN
'OSEH SHALOM B'IMROMAV HU YA'ASEH
SHALOM 'ALEYNU V'AL KOL YISRAEL
V'IMRU - AMEN

Exalted and hallowed
Be G-d's greatness
In this world of Your creation
May Your will be fulfilled
And Your sovereignity revealed
And the life of the whole House of Israel
Speedily and soon.
And say, Amen.
May You be blessed forever,
Even to all eternity.
May You, Most Holy One, be blessed,
Praised and honoured,
Extolled and glorified,
Adored and exalted above all else.
Blessed are You.
Beyond all blessings and hymns,
praises and consolations
That may be uttered in this world,
In the days of our lifetime,
And say, Amen.
May peace abundant descend from Heaven,
With life for us and for all Israel,
And say, Amen.
May G-d, Who makes peace on high,
Bring peace to all and to all Israel.
And say, Amen.

The phrase "sitting shiva" simply refers to the 7 day period of mourning immediately after the death of a loved one. Different Jews do it differently. None of this is praying to the dead or for the dead, per se. The kaddish simply helps the mourner remember that G-d alone is our righteous judge.

[Rokke]

"Of course it did"

If you truly believe that (as I do) then your statement in the early post (prayer is only given to those who were judged righteous by God but were not fully absolved of all reparation due for their forgiven sins) is irrelevent, as are prayers for the dead. The souls of the dead are either already with Christ, or they never will be.

[gbcdoj]

If there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek

Wow, way to take that out of context. He's referring to Christians: "they [the unbelieving Jews], not knowing the justice of God and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God. For the end of the law is Christ: unto justice to everyone that believeth." (Rom 10:3-4)

For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-29)

[unspun]

Oh my. Is the writer here actually blaming the reading of the Word, for people losing their faith?

Sheesh.

If so, one must wonder what their faith was in....

[Rokke]

One additional point...while I have no objection with what St. Thomas Aquinas says here, I find it interesting that in your last two posts to me you use sources other than the Bible to support discussions concerning the Bible. I think that is a classic example of one of the problems many Protestants have with the Catholic Church. It relies too often on its (authorized?) intrepretations of the Bible to support its doctrine, rather than merely sharing the actual text of the Bible. Christ's words on whether men are freed from punishment of sin through His Passion are very clear.

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I do.

[gbcdoj]

Christ's infinite reparation on the Cross is not applied to everyone: that is universalism. Christ applies his merits to us through instrumental means, likening them to his own sufferings: "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." Rm 6:5, "being made free from sin and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end life everlasting" Rm 6:22, "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" Col 1:24. What

[gbcdoj]

rather than merely sharing the actual text of the Bible

Martin Luther and John Calvin wrote commentaries on Scripture. Christ appointed "pastors and doctors" in his Church for a reason, a "unity of faith", after all. (cf. Eph 4:11-13).

[JHavard]

The phrase "sitting shiva" simply refers to the 7 day period of mourning immediately after the death of a loved one. Different Jews do it differently. None of this is praying to the dead or for the dead, per se. The kaddish simply helps the mourner remember that G-d alone is our righteous judge.

Thank you. Then you do not pray for the dead, or to the dead, but to God that He will comfort those who have lost a loved one, is that right?

That’s nothing like what the Catholics believe.

JH :)

[JHavard]

Apparently Christ's death and resurection did not provide enough "reparation"?

No, but you've got to admit it was close. Lol

JH :)

[Rokke]

"Christ's infinite reparation on the Cross is not applied to everyone: that is universalism."

On this, we agree completely. As Christ says...

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

[Tamar1973]

Thank you. Then you do not pray for the dead, or to the dead, but to God that He will comfort those who have lost a loved one, is that right?

For myself, yes. However, some Jews do beleive that when a male son (in particular) prays Kaddish for the 11 months after the death of a parent, G-d grants additional merit to the deceased person's soul. (Basically if you raised a son righteous enough to be willing to say Kaddish every day for 11 months, you're a pretty good person.)

However, except for this 11 month period after death, the kaddish is only said on the anniversary of a person's death. To pray Kaddish for a person for more than 11 months in a row would imply that the person really needed to be prayed for. Jews do NOT have a system like purgatory.

There are interesting traditions surrounding "sitting shiva". The word "shiva" in Hebrew simply means "seven" because this phase of mourning last 7 days, starting with the date of the person death until the 7th day after. Mourners wear black and most will wear a black ribbon which is to be torn in mourning and worn for 7 days. Mourners sit on the floor, don't use mirrors and their first meal after the funeral can't be prepared in anyway by the family of the deceased.

[Tamar1973]

I need to clarify something I said earlier. I said "All major Jewish sects (Orthodox, Reform, Conservative) with the exception of Messianic Jews do indeed pray for the dead indirectly by praying the Kaddish for them. "

I should re-phrase that. Messianic Jews DO pray Kaddish for our relatives, but we don't believe that such prayers grant any merit to the deceased. Only Yeshua's death and ressurection grants us merit in the eyes of G-d.

[JHavard]

What are you talking about? Catholicism is not the religion of birth. There are millions of converts with no previous Catholic background every year. That's just a silly thing to say.

Perhaps in overseas communities where if you feed a village they are then all considered Catholics, but find me the stats for the US that shows converts chose to join the Catholic Church with no previous connection to it, and I’ll admit I was wrong.

And when did you become the world's counselor? How do you know who would be comfortable in the Catholic Church. Again, you are speaking nonsense here. Pure opionion.

You no doubt have opinions why you’d never be a Baptist or a Methodist, and I’m just giving you my personal feelings about rituals, and customs, and statues, incense, candles, bells and etc. As a non-Catholic, I believe a majority of NC’s feel the same way, that’s all.

Have you even tried to learn the truth about the Catholic church? Not what others mistakenly believe the Catholic Church to be. It's not scary. We don't bite.

I probably know your religion much better then the average Catholic, and I’ve studied much of your history, and that may be the main reason why I could never be a Catholic.

A really good book for anyone that is interested in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church can be found here:

The church with a small “c” started out quite innocently for the first three hundred years, then it started becoming a political power, and rejected the warning of Jesus Christ in Matthew 20:25-26, Mark 10:25-26, and Luke 22:25-26. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

When they rejected three warnings from Christ, they forfeited any potential they had to lead the church of Christ.

There is only one church in existence that has maintained the commands of Christ, and that’s the only temple that God dwells in today.

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Acts 17:24-25 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

The gates of hell have prevailed countless times over the Church that men built, but it can never prevail over the temple that God dwells in.

If your such a history buff, tell me which Old Testament translation was your official Church Bible, the Latin Vulgate taken from, Jerome’s translation from the Hebrew text, or the Septuagint Greek?

JH :)

[Salvation]

Agree with you.

[Salvation]

Great Resource, thanks!

Also a lot of information here at Catholic Answers