Posted on 11/19/2004 8:21:22 AM PST by Stubborn
Well-meaning, not highly educated Catholics who eagerly joined bible-study groups after the Council not uncommonly found their inherited faith shaken, as they were invited -- by group leaders and by written materials -- to scrutinize Catholic teachings and practices sceptically and to measure them against the New Testament in classical Protestant fashion, a scrutiny which usually seemed to work to the Church's disadvantage. Although this was not their original intention, many people became liberal Catholics through the medium of Bible study. (Thus liberal Catholics are quick to ask, for example, "Where does the New Testament condemn homosexuality?" or "Where does it say that women cannot be ordained priests?")
(Excerpt) Read more at cwnews.com ...
Of course it did.
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, III q. 49 a. 3Whether men were freed from the punishment of sin through Christ's Passion?
Objection 1. It would seem that men were not freed from the punishment of sin by Christ's Passion. For the chief punishment of sin is eternal damnation. But those damned in hell for their sins were not set free by Christ's Passion, because "in hell there is no redemption" [Office of the Dead, Resp. vii]. It seems, therefore, that Christ's Passion did not deliver men from the punishment of sin.
Objection 2. Further, no punishment should be imposed upon them who are delivered from the debt of punishment. But a satisfactory punishment is imposed upon penitents. Consequently, men were not freed from the debt of punishment by Christ's Passion.
Objection 3. Further, death is a punishment of sin, according to Rm. 6:23: "The wages of sin is death." But men still die after Christ's Passion. Therefore it seems that we have not been delivered from the debt of punishment.
On the contrary, It is written (Is. 53:4): "Surely He hath borne our iniquities and carried our sorrows."
I answer that, Through Christ's Passion we have been delivered from the debt of punishment in two ways. First of all, directly--namely, inasmuch as Christ's Passion was sufficient and superabundant satisfaction for the sins of the whole human race: but when sufficient satisfaction has been paid, then the debt of punishment is abolished. In another way--indirectly, that is to say--in so far as Christ's Passion is the cause of the forgiveness of sin, upon which the debt of punishment rests.
Reply to Objection 1. Christ's Passion works its effect in them to whom it is applied, through faith and charity and the sacraments of faith. And, consequently, the lost in hell cannot avail themselves of its effects, since they are not united to Christ in the aforesaid manner.
Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 4,5), in order to secure the effects of Christ's Passion, we must be likened unto Him. Now we are likened unto Him sacramentally in Baptism, according to Rm. 6:4: "For we are buried together with Him by baptism into death." Hence no punishment of satisfaction is imposed upon men at their baptism, since they are fully delivered by Christ's satisfaction. But because, as it is written (1 Pt. 3:18), "Christ died" but "once for our sins," therefore a man cannot a second time be likened unto Christ's death by the sacrament of Baptism. Hence it is necessary that those who sin after Baptism be likened unto Christ suffering by some form of punishment or suffering which they endure in their own person; yet, by the co-operation of Christ's satisfaction, much lighter penalty suffices than one that is proportionate to the sin.
Reply to Objection 3. Christ's satisfaction works its effect in us inasmuch as we are incorporated with Him, as the members with their head, as stated above (1). Now the members must be conformed to their head. Consequently, as Christ first had grace in His soul with bodily passibility, and through the Passion attained to the glory of immortality, so we likewise, who are His members, are freed by His Passion from all debt of punishment, yet so that we first receive in our souls "the spirit of adoption of sons," whereby our names are written down for the inheritance of immortal glory, while we yet have a passible and mortal body: but afterwards, "being made conformable" to the sufferings and death of Christ, we are brought into immortal glory, according to the saying of the Apostle (Rm. 8:17): "And if sons, heirs also: heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ; yet so if we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified with Him."
I'd come home with the church school text book and we'd sit there and she'd make fun of it. She didn't understand why Catholics had to learn all this crap before First Communion.
I was taught that 'Catholics are mean'. And we kind of are. The most orthodox RC parishes don't even have greeters, for heaven's sakes!
How you remember your experiences is irrelevant, its what you came to accept as normal for Catholics that Im referring to.
If you sat in school; for nine months and watched a Nun and others doing their signs of the cross, or going through their prayer beads, or saw them genuflect, or the way some dressed, it would become common place to you.
I attended mass with my wife years ago, and I couldnt consecrate on the services because I couldnt take my eyes off the rituals they were doing. If they dont seem strange, then you have more Catholic background then you care to admit.
As a kid I was brought up in farm country, where almost everyone on the school bus smelled of the barn, but no one thought anything about it. As an adult I painted cars for 20 some years and breathed in paint fumes until I enjoyed the smell of Lacquer paints and primers.
Others would come in the shop, and cover their nose with a handkerchief, and run back out the door.
To this day, I still enjoy those nostalgic smells, and they bring back fond memories, but its because I had been accustomed to them when I was younger, even though at the time I didnt realize it.
I would guess that 99% of those who end up Catholic have some form of Catholic custom in their background.
You dont seem to think you had enough in yours to make a difference as to how you view Catholicism, but if you go back over it, Im sure youll see why it was so easy for you to accept.
Unless nepotism, or who your parents or your relatives are, or what school you went to determines whether or not you become a believer in Christ, then the Catholic Church is going to stagnate, unless it reaches out to the rest of the unbelievers, and fulfills it commission.
It does seem that most of you would rather keep it in the family, but thats not what Christ wanted. If you want to keep your candle under a basket, thats fine, but dont call it Catholic persecution when no one wants to come to you when God calls them, and your Church doesnt welcome them unless they have a pedigree in your religion first.
Non Catholics Churches say, come as you are and the Holy Spirit will train you to be a Christian.
The Catholic Churches says, you must learn to be Catholic first, then you can become a Christian.
JH :)
"Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
If there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, how can you say the Greek are the only true believers, or the Jews are the only true believers, or the Catholics are the only true believers?
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
JH :)
All major Jewish sects (Orthodox, Reform, Conservative) with the exception of Messianic Jews do indeed pray for the dead indirectly by praying the Kaddish for them.
The phrase "sitting shiva" simply refers to the 7 day period of mourning immediately after the death of a loved one. Different Jews do it differently. None of this is praying to the dead or for the dead, per se. The kaddish simply helps the mourner remember that G-d alone is our righteous judge.
If you truly believe that (as I do) then your statement in the early post (prayer is only given to those who were judged righteous by God but were not fully absolved of all reparation due for their forgiven sins) is irrelevent, as are prayers for the dead. The souls of the dead are either already with Christ, or they never will be.
Wow, way to take that out of context. He's referring to Christians: "they [the unbelieving Jews], not knowing the justice of God and seeking to establish their own, have not submitted themselves to the justice of God. For the end of the law is Christ: unto justice to everyone that believeth." (Rom 10:3-4)
For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-29)
Sheesh.
If so, one must wonder what their faith was in....
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
I do.
Martin Luther and John Calvin wrote commentaries on Scripture. Christ appointed "pastors and doctors" in his Church for a reason, a "unity of faith", after all. (cf. Eph 4:11-13).
Thank you. Then you do not pray for the dead, or to the dead, but to God that He will comfort those who have lost a loved one, is that right?
Thats nothing like what the Catholics believe.
JH :)
No, but you've got to admit it was close. Lol
JH :)
On this, we agree completely. As Christ says...
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
For myself, yes. However, some Jews do beleive that when a male son (in particular) prays Kaddish for the 11 months after the death of a parent, G-d grants additional merit to the deceased person's soul. (Basically if you raised a son righteous enough to be willing to say Kaddish every day for 11 months, you're a pretty good person.)
However, except for this 11 month period after death, the kaddish is only said on the anniversary of a person's death. To pray Kaddish for a person for more than 11 months in a row would imply that the person really needed to be prayed for. Jews do NOT have a system like purgatory.
There are interesting traditions surrounding "sitting shiva". The word "shiva" in Hebrew simply means "seven" because this phase of mourning last 7 days, starting with the date of the person death until the 7th day after. Mourners wear black and most will wear a black ribbon which is to be torn in mourning and worn for 7 days. Mourners sit on the floor, don't use mirrors and their first meal after the funeral can't be prepared in anyway by the family of the deceased.
I should re-phrase that. Messianic Jews DO pray Kaddish for our relatives, but we don't believe that such prayers grant any merit to the deceased. Only Yeshua's death and ressurection grants us merit in the eyes of G-d.
Perhaps in overseas communities where if you feed a village they are then all considered Catholics, but find me the stats for the US that shows converts chose to join the Catholic Church with no previous connection to it, and Ill admit I was wrong.
And when did you become the world's counselor? How do you know who would be comfortable in the Catholic Church. Again, you are speaking nonsense here. Pure opionion.
You no doubt have opinions why youd never be a Baptist or a Methodist, and Im just giving you my personal feelings about rituals, and customs, and statues, incense, candles, bells and etc. As a non-Catholic, I believe a majority of NCs feel the same way, thats all.
Have you even tried to learn the truth about the Catholic church? Not what others mistakenly believe the Catholic Church to be. It's not scary. We don't bite.
I probably know your religion much better then the average Catholic, and Ive studied much of your history, and that may be the main reason why I could never be a Catholic.
A really good book for anyone that is interested in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church can be found here:
The church with a small c started out quite innocently for the first three hundred years, then it started becoming a political power, and rejected the warning of Jesus Christ in Matthew 20:25-26, Mark 10:25-26, and Luke 22:25-26. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
When they rejected three warnings from Christ, they forfeited any potential they had to lead the church of Christ.
There is only one church in existence that has maintained the commands of Christ, and thats the only temple that God dwells in today.
1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Acts 17:24-25 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
The gates of hell have prevailed countless times over the Church that men built, but it can never prevail over the temple that God dwells in.
If your such a history buff, tell me which Old Testament translation was your official Church Bible, the Latin Vulgate taken from, Jeromes translation from the Hebrew text, or the Septuagint Greek?
JH :)
Agree with you.
Also a lot of information here at Catholic Answers
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