Bishop Warns Of Rogue (Catholic) Church To Membership

The Denver Channel ^ | 11/15/2004 | The Denver Channel

[Land of the Irish]

There was no dispensation.

Thanks for making my point.

[Poohbah]

If the "priest" performing the wedding was not in communion with the local diocese or with the Holy See, then he is not a Catholic priest, has zero authority to perform said wedding, and is representing himself as a licit priest.

That is the problem.

Nuptials performed in Protestant churches get a blanket dispensation because they are not fraudulently representing themselves as Catholic churches.

[gbcdoj]

in the RCC, every marriage is always presumed valid, schismatic or not

Can. 1108 §1 Only those marriages are valid which are contracted in the presence of the local Ordinary or parish priest or of the priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who, in the presence of two witnesses, assists, in accordance however with the rules set out in the following canons, and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144, 1112 §1, 1116 and 1127 §§2 - 3.

[DBeers]

"We might as well have gotten married in front of a justice of the peace," Patrick told the Gazette.

-that is about all that he did AND it is about time he became aware of it -I commend this Bishop for speaking and acting in Truth!

This is not about tradidional vs. non-traditional -THIS is about Catholic vs. non-Catholic

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

When Campos regularized with Rome all previously administered Sacraments were recognized as valid.

Like magic.

[Siobhan]

Unless you enter an Episcopalian church and the rector piously tells you, "Oh but we are Catholic, my dear..."

[Poohbah]

Unless you enter an Episcopalian church and the rector piously tells you, "Oh but we are Catholic, my dear..."

Never had that experience.

[Stubborn]

Yes, this is the new code of canon law of the current pope - and he has the right to change canon law - but pre-V2, this law would have been called heretical and most probably the cause of many invalid annulments.

Since marriage is contracted through the mutual, expressed consent of the spouses, without the priest and his blessing, a valid marriage can still take place, even though the sacrament is of course lacking. Even a marriage that may have been illicit can still be valid, as such, I fail to understand how the canon law you posted does not contradict previous RCC teachings. OTOH, its easy to see how that canon could ultimately be responsible for many broken families.

[dsc]

"We might as well have gotten married in front of a justice of the peace," Patrick told the Gazette.
-that is about all that he did AND it is about time he became aware of it -I commend this Bishop for speaking and acting in Truth!

But he could still petition to have his marriage regularized (is that the right term?), couldn't he?

Converts do.

[Convert from ECUSA]

"I've always thought it outrageous that these folks are the ones the bishops come down so hard upon, while pro-abortion pols are coddled. I don't condone schism and they should get in trouble, but other "catholics" deserve far more trouble and aren't getting any."

Amen, you aren't the only one to feel this way! I've said several times in this forum that I cannot understand why those (whether SSPX, FSSP, or whatever) who want the Latin Mass, prefer it, etc. - regadless of whatever group they do or do not belong to - seem to be marginalized, maybe given a crumb of one parish in a diocese, etc., yet the pro-abort politicos, outright heretics like Mahoney, etc., etc., etc., are barely tapped on the wrist. Maybe because I'm a "dumb" new convert, I haven't been around long enough to understand all the internal politics.

All I know is that I see people, some of whom belong to groups in schism, others in groups where it is not clear if the groups are in schism or not, others within the Church, who truly want to have proper liturgy and worship, solid doctrine, the opportunity and option for a more traditional Mass, priests they can trust with their children and teens (especially the boys), and those people are made to feel that they are "out of their place", and at best, are ghettoized or ignored. I see others, who flat out advocate and stand for things I knew even in my Protestant days were not even remotely Christian or part of the Church, and barely a word of rebuke.

[DBeers]

"But he could still petition to have his marriage regularized (is that the right term?), couldn't he?"

Yes, of course the marriage can be made valid as long as there are no impediments.

[DBeers]

"I see others, who flat out advocate and stand for things I knew even in my Protestant days were not even remotely Christian or part of the Church, and barely a word of rebuke."

the saying "honor amongst thieves" comes to mind as an apt analogy of what you observe...

[Stubborn]

Maybe because I'm a "dumb" new convert,.......

Judging from your posts, I'd be happy to dumb like you :-)

[GratianGasparri]

I don't think I ever heard of Ludwig Ott,

Prior to Vatican II, his books on moral theology were the standard used in most Catholic seminaries. Even today, most conservative and traditionalist seminaries (including schismatic SSPX and sedevacantist ones) use his works.

but in the RCC, every marriage is always presumed valid, schismatic or not. This novus ordo priest who stated they were not married is simply slinging empty and heretical slander.

When one party is Catholic, the marriage is only presumed valid if canonical form was followed. Additionally, the NOM priest has another good reason to assume the marriage invalid -- the Roman Rota, which is the Church's surpreme court in non-procedural matters, has already declared two marriages from this same traddy chapel to be invalid due to lack of form.

[Convert from ECUSA]

:) Thanks! We could have a "dumb-a-thon" and drive all the termites crazy! :)

[GratianGasparri]

But he could still petition to have his marriage regularized (is that the right term?), couldn't he?

Yes. Depending upon how it was done, the proper term would either be "convalidated" if the couple exchanged a new act of consent in front of the priest and two witnesses, or "sanated" if the Church simply fixed things quietly behind the scenes. (The latter is what was done in Campos after the reconciliation a few years ago.) I'm surprised the diocese went to all this trouble since when it comes to traditionalists, most dioceses usually just quietly sanate the marriage behind the scenes and allow the couple to go in peace.

[Gingersnap]

"Unless you enter an Episcopalian church and the rector piously tells you, "Oh but we are Catholic, my dear..."

LOL! Of course, we old fashioned Anglicans ARE catholic! We just don't operate under the authority of Rome.

Actually, my Anglo-Catholic church is in many ways much, much closer to the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church than it is to the contemporary expressions of the Church. Our liturgy is slightly different and our language is reverential English with a dash of Latin but a Catholic Traditionalist would find much that is familiar.

[GratianGasparri]

Yes, this is the new code of canon law of the current pope - and he has the right to change canon law - but pre-V2, this law would have been called heretical and most probably the cause of many invalid annulments.

Um...Stubborn, your previous post is a serious example of partial knowledge being more dangerous than no knowledge. Not to be rude, but you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Throughout the Church's history, those mainly responsible for imposing a canonical form of marriage FOR VALIDITY (not just liciety) are Pope St. Pius V and Pope St. Pius X. If anything, Pope John Paul II weakened this requirement in the 1983 Code when he allowed for Catholics, who had defected from the Catholic Faith by means of a formal act, to validly marry outside of canonical form.

[Stubborn]

Confusing the lack of the Sacrament with the validity of the marriage is quite common with the novus ordo folks. The Sacrament may be lacking but the contracted marriage is valid - assuming there were no diriment impediments involved.

[Stubborn]

LOL