Posted on 05/30/2004 5:56:34 AM PDT by NYer
Thanks for posting this. I read it a couple of days ago and wanted to post it, but didn't get to it!
But all the glory is given to Mary, from the title of this article on. It's always about Mary, and with personal respect, don't you see that?
Blessed by the Great Mother of God, Mary most holy!
Not at all. Our Lady always leads people to her Son.
3:31 And His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him, and called Him.
32 And a multitude was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You."
33 And answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers?"
34 And looking about on those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold, My mother and My brothers!
35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother." (NASB)
And remember that Jesus also said that He was the way, the truth, and the light and that no man cometh unto the Father except by him. Praying for intercession by anyone else won't help by our Lord's own words. Nobody died on that cross except Jesus as the atonement for our sins, and He's our only redemption and intercessor. To believe otherwise is to call Jesus a liar.
But why do these Marian apparitions always put in a go-between, and always bring the overridding attention to 'Mary'?
At Lourdes, Fatima, and Guadalupe, always the emphasis is on Mary, the "Queen of Heaven". The apparition mentions "her son" and to come to him, but people only see that Mother Mary supposedly appeared. That is not calling attention to Jesus, that is calling attention to the apparition called Mary.
For I know that this shall fall out to me unto salvation, through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my expectation and hope; that in nothing I shall be confounded: but with all confidence, as always, so now also, shall Christ be magnified in my body, whether it be by life or by death. (Philippians 1:19-20)
Was St. Paul wrong when he thought that these prayers would help him? Is it a bad thing to ask a Christian to pray for you? St. Paul didn't think so.
He's our only ... intercessor.
Let's test this doctrine according to the Scriptures:
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:
2 For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. (1 St. Timothy 2)
And also, it shouldn't take an apparition calling itself "Mary" to point the way to Jesus. The apparition is the one that ends up with all the attention.
Nonsense. Sola scriptura is not scriptural.
Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints. (Job 5:1)
When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Tobias 12:12)
Now the vision was in this manner. Onias, who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias, the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword, a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. (2 Machabees 18:12-16)
And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Revelation 8:3-4)
The ability to ask the saints in heaven to intercede for you follows directly from the nature of the Beatific Vision of God's essence, in which those glorified know all that is fitting, including requests made for their prayers.
At any rate, I have to go now and I respect you as a fellow Christian, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
"it shouldn't take an apparition"
If I see God, I'll tell him He's doing things all wrong, according to xJones.
It shouldn't?????
The first miracle of Our Lord was done via Mary's request! She interceded on earth, and still does. If people just read the Catholic Cathechism instead of just repeating stuff other's have said, there would be so more understanding.
Yes. I don't know where the line is crossed between honoring Mary and Mariolatry.
“Holy Mother, forgive me my sins,”
Clearly, this is going too far.
I never have been able to understand why Jesus in the church, Eucharist and sacraments is insufficient to satiate peoples' hunger. I'm kind of caught in the middle on a lot of this. If people already have Jesus, as Catholics do from the day they are baptized, through their confirmation and by attending mass throughout their lives, why do they need Mary to lead them to Him?
The real Mary was a major contributor to the Christian religion and deserves to be honored as such. I can't help seeing a parallel in the old testament where the Jews had their revealed religion and evidently it wasn't enough for them and they went off worshipping other gods in shrines on the hilltops which was ultimately divinely punished by their being carried off into captivity.
I'd be more open to a lot of this if I were sure that it is the real Mary that is the source of all the Marian phenonema.
I know the church builds her theology on the intercession of Mary and the saints, but in the first intercession, from what little we are told about it, it appears that she took it upon herself to mention it and not by being asked to do so. Furthermore, she didn't ask. She made a declarative statement, "They have no wine". Then she makes an imperative statement, "Do whatever he tells you." She never really asks . I suppose this is considered intercession in a roundabout way.
I cannot explain the Marian apparitions other than to say that Mary is a Jewish Mother...and if your son was divine, you'd probably never tire of telling people about him, too! :-)
Biblical Basis
God alone deserves and must receive divine worship: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matthew 4:10). Angels cannot receive this worship: "Let no man beguile you of your reward, in a voluntary humility, and worshipping of angels" (Colossians 2:18; see also Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9). Human beings also cannot receive it (Acts 10:25). But the Bible also tells us in regard to creatures to give honor where honor is due (Romans 13:8) such as civil authorities and parents: "Honour thy father and thy mother" (Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16).
Mary is our heavenly Mother, as discussed in article. Since God commanded us to honor our mothers, Mary certainly deserves our honor.
Marian devotion began when the Angel Gabriel saluted Mary, saying "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Luke 1:27, Douay); words undoubtably given him by God. The Holy Spirit then inspired Elizabeth to carry on the devotion, by making her cry out "Blessed art thou among women...blessed is she who believed". God inspired the first devotees of Mary; He even inspired Mary herself to prophesy "From henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:48). God clearly wants all people to call Mary blessed! The Catholic Church fulfills God's will in this matter.
An inscription at the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth, dating back to 200 A.D., says "Hail Mary!". This is very early evidence of prayer to Mary.
The Sub Tuum Praesidium is another early prayer to her:
We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God.The Hail Mary also originated early on, since most of it comes from the Bible. This later became one of the prayers of the Rosary, along with the Our Father, Glory be and Apostle's Creed, all of Biblical or early Christian origin.
Despise not our petitions in our necessities,
But deliver us from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and Blessed Virgin! (circa 300 A.D.)
So Marian devotions clearly trace back to the early Church.
Sorry xJ, I don't believe that. And I don't think anybody believed as you do until the 19th Century. Even Martin Luther was devoted to Our Lady.
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