Posted on 05/30/2004 5:56:34 AM PDT by NYer
***Not at all. Our Lady always leads people to her Son.***
Not according to the Fatima "apparition"...
"...Do you suffer a great deal? Don’t be discouraged. I will never forsake you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the road that will conduct you to God."
- "Mary"
So she claims to lead people to God directly. This is contradiction to Jesus he said he alone was the way, the truth and the life and that no one came to the Father but by him.
***It shouldn't?????***
And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house-- for I have five brothers --so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
No, it shouldn't.
Hey, a nice big heaping bowl of Yopios.
Sorry, that passage doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.
"So she claims to lead people to God directly."
What, are you a polytheist?
Jesus IS God. One God in three Persons, remember?
"So she claims to lead people to God directly. This is contradiction to Jesus he said he alone was the way, the truth and the life and that no one came to the Father but by him."
Hmmm. Petronius, are you saying Jesus isn't God?
You say:
<< Not according to the Fatima "apparition ...
"...Do you suffer a great deal? Don’t be discouraged. I will never forsake you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the road that will conduct you to God."
- "Mary"
So she claims to lead people to God directly. This is contradiction to Jesus he said he alone was the way, the truth and the life and that no one came to the Father but by him. ">>
I'd like to remind you that Jesus IS God!
***Jesus IS God. One God in three Persons, remember?***
***I'd like to remind you that Jesus IS God!***
***...her Son is God, isn't He?***
***Hmmm. Petronius, are you saying Jesus isn't God?***
Of course the Godhead is three Persons. Three distinct Persons. But to confuse the Personages is also heresy.
The Marian "apparition" distinguishes between God and Jesus in her message - She refers to them both. (See below)
"Jesus wishes to make use of you to have me acknowledged and loved. He wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart... To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart..."
And the fact that "she" distinguishes them makes "her" statement even MORE blasphemous. "She" acknowledges Jesus but still claims to be the road that will lead people to God.
At worst "she" is guilty of imprecision in "her" use of language - VERY suspect when coming from a spiritual apparition that claims to stand in the presence of God.
****Sorry, that passage doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.****
The meaning couldn't possibly be more clear:
Abraham: "Listen Dives, your brothers have the scriptures, the have Moses and the Prophets.
If they won't repent after hearing the scriptures, then they won't repent even though someone came back from the dead to tell them."
So no, (as xJones said), it shouldn't take an apparition of a departed person to get people to turn from their sins and put their faith in Jesus.
"The meaning couldn't possibly be more clear:"
Yes, and you couldn't possibly be more wrong about it.
To say that a particular group of people are so obdurate that not even an apparition would turn them around is not the same thing as saying that there will never be apparitions.
As a matter of fact, unless you wish to deny the Transfiguration, we know that there have been apparitions.
There are slightly differing variations but the basic story is that a lady appears to humble, usually young children, and she wants them to pray because her son, Jesus, is hurt by the world's sins. She can withhold his wrath if they'll pray various things. Also, in some accounts, she can lead people to salvation. IOW, she has more power than Jesus, the Messiah.
In all these Marian apparitions the dominating figure is, of course, Mary, who says to go to her son, but always she's in control, she's the one that showed up in whatever location, and she can tell the Son of God what to do or not.
I've read one Orthodox view of the historical Marian apparitions which was good, even with the occasional gratuitous Orthodox swats at "the Latin church", and Protestantism. But the analysis of the seeming need for another Earth mother goddess cult is certainly interesting.Marian Apparations.
And nowhere does Our Lady at Fatima confuse the three Personages. It was you who got confused and, rather than admit it, now offer this silly reposte. If I say, "Today, I shall try to bring people to God" or I say, "Today, I shall try to bring people to Jesus," I have said EXACTLY the same thing.
Your problem is, when you read about Our Lady at Fatima, you were in such a hurry to find fault you read "God" and thought, "God the Father," and, interestingly enough, forgot all about the fact that it is perfectly legitimate to call Jesus, "God." Then, rather than admit your mistake, your pride led you to post this latest laughable offering. Consider the words you find at best, "imprecise," and, at worst, "blasphemous:"
"The Marian "apparition" distinguishes between God and Jesus in her message - She refers to them both. (See below)
"Jesus wishes to make use of you to have me acknowledged and loved. He wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart... To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart..."
In these words she's not DISTINGUISHING between God and Jesus at all. Indeed, she points out Jesus wants to "establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart" and God wants to "establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart." That she is referring to the same Entity -God the Son- is immediately indicated by the fact the same goal, "devotion to My Immaculate Heart" is ascribed to God and to Jesus, i.e. the same Entity. The only way you can read that to be distinguishing between God and Jesus is if you, yourself, distinguish between them. Which no good Catholic -including the Mother of God- would ever do.
Thus, the only "blasphemy" on this thread comes from you, who continue to insist that to use "God" and "Jesus" interchangably is potentially blasphemous.
Some of the ones that have not been approved are Garabandal, Medjugorje, Necedah, Bayside, Conyers, and a few others.
After doing some personal research, I decided that Guadalupe is probably based on a legend and not a real event, but I know *something* happened at Lourdes, Fatima, and Knock. What, I'm no longer as sure as I once was.
The transfiguration isn't the same and belongs in a unique category as a one-time thing. Even after his resurrection, Jesus seems to have appeared in normal human form except for his wounds. I don't know exactly what Paul saw in his vision other than blinding light.
The scriptures do talk about spirits and testing them. The test as described in the scriptures has never been applied to any of the apparitions I've studied. The spirit is supposed to affirm that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God. There could be other spirits named Jesus.
You mean if Petronius denies the Transfiguration, you won't know that there have been apparitions? No comment...:)
Jesus was there during the Transfiguration, and He has never been reported as being present during a Marian event. Only apparitions calling themselves 'Mary' have been involved in these stories, and her 'son's' continual absence is rather noticeable.
"Jesus was there during the Transfiguration, and He has never been reported as being present during a Marian event."
I believe He was present as a babe in St. Joseph's arms at Fatima.
Even if He weren't, though, that fact would be without significance.
"The transfiguration isn't the same"
Hey, deceased saints appeared to living men. That is "same" enough for me.
It is not necessary for Catholics to believe them, even those approved by the Church.
If the apparition draws a believer to Christ, then it is beneficial.
If the apparition becomes an end in itself, then it isn't.
This poor soul, for instance, has misplaced his devotion to Christ, since only He can forgive sins.
That part of it was similar, but the other part where the apostles saw Jesus transformed is unprecedented from anything I have ever heard or read about. Moses may have come close when his countenance was radiant, and the same with some holy people in this world, but it sounds like Jesus' entire being was transformed and blindingly radiant. Maybe I have read more into the scriptural account than is warranted, but that is my impression. What makes that incident unique to me is that Jesus was still in his earthly existence whereas heavenly beings don't appear lit up like that until after they have departed from this life and I surmise they appear with a "lesser glory" when and if they do.
I just see that particular incident unparalleled and unique. I don't know if any other old testament figures had ever appeared to anyone before except Saul who was called up by the witch of Endor. It doesn't seem that there was anything comparable to the "communion of the saints" in old testament times, and it was forbidden to speak to the dead who may not have been dead after all. It was just forbidden, and I'm not sure we have the reason other than such manifestations, if they did occur, were usually from the evil one or delusions.
Has any other human being ever appeared as a being of light while yet in their earthly existence? Could they? Jesus was the only being who was both human and divine which is what makes what happened to him unique, at least to me.
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