The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[IMRight]

Do you have Scripture for this? Are you saying Jesus is wrong in saying NOONE comes to the Father except through Him?

You're running around in circles on this. I'm saying that the verse is not exclusive the way you are using it. For instance... those OT saints certainly did not "believe in Jesus" by your current standards, yet they got in. That does not negate the verse... it merely means that the verse shows that whoever gets into heaven got there "through Jesus". You're just defining "through Jesus" narrowly (now, but not in the OT). The same with the pygmies... I don't know if ANY of them get to go - only that IF they DO get in, it will be because of Jesus (whether they know His name or not).

[IMRight]

lol.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You are the reason that she is lost, you didn't do your all like God told you too, you failed. You should hang your head in shame.

BigMack

[OLD REGGIE]

John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am.

John 8: (RSV)
18: I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me."

24: I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he."

I must assume that you are using the NAB. Most Bible versions include the word "he", and some include even more words.

In the event you are using the NAB please note the reference to "I AM" in John 4:
25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I am he, the one who is speaking with you."

Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah!

[RnMomof7]

Also not exclusive. Some hear the truth and believe, some hear the truth and reject it (they have "not believed"). There is a possible third category of those who have not heard and do not "believe or disbelieve". Like it or not, David fell into that category. He certainly WOULD HAVE believed in Jesus (and I'm sure right after the crucifiction he got his chance). But he didn't at the time.
You have also opened WIDE the door of what constitutes "belief in Jesus" since men who had never heard the name get full credit.

They believed the PROMISE ( Hebrews)

The OT saints were saved by faith , just as the NT saints..they looked forward to the promise as we look back

Their faith was a gift also .

."All that are Israel are not Israel"

[Invincibly Ignorant]

You are the reason that she is lost, you didn't do your all like God told you too, you failed. You should hang your head in shame.

Oh come on Mack. Ya think nailing Terri for her failure with Resty gets you off the hook? I think not. :-)

[Alex Murphy]

Your posts are so much more fun to read when you forget to use spellcheck, BigMack.

If RnMom should hang her head in shame over Resty's being "lost", you'd need a millstone around your neck by comparison for Iggy's failure. At least Resty's still in the same church she was in when RnMom & her first met :)

[JohnnyM]

"Most Bible versions include the word "he", and some include even more words."

They include this word, but it is not in the original text. It was added by the translators. The exact translation would exclude the word he. Now, about John 1. Do you consider it inspired?

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

Well, since you play fast and loose with what "is" and what "is not" Scripture today, I suppose you can make that claim. He certainly makes the claim implicitly or explicitly many times in what is commonly referred to as "Scripture".

Let's make it easy on you. We could argue forever on the "implicits" so lets ask the simple, easy to prove, question. Where does Jesus explicity claim to be God?

[IMRight]

They believed the PROMISE

Yes. And Jesus saying I am the way.... No man comes unto the Father but by Me" did not invalidate that promise.

Their faith was a gift also.

We weren't debating Calvinism... Yes, their faith was a gift, otherwise they would ahve reason for boasting.

[Alex Murphy]

Let's make it easy on you. We could argue forever on the "implicits" so lets ask the simple, easy to prove, question. Where does Jesus explicity claim to be God?

Does "I am the Alpha and Omega" ring any bells for you?

[IMRight]

Let's make it easy on you. We could argue forever on the "implicits" so lets ask the simple, easy to prove, question. Where does Jesus explicity claim to be God?

That "I AM" is about as explicit as you get. Or is God the Father "the great 'I AM'" and Jesus is the "lesser 'I am'" now??

He also said "I give you a new commandment" Not "God says" as a prophet might.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Why do you think it was that He left 2 or 3 hints (that have to be interpeted) instead of coming out with it? Is it another of those secrets that only the most spiritually discerning can know? "to the ones it has been given"?

[JohnnyM]

John 1 pretty much clears up all debate.

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

Does "I am the Alpha and Omega" ring any bells for you?

The bell it rings for me says it is not a direct quote from Jesus. Are you claiming "proof" for something which hasn't happened? Revelation is just that, not a Scriptural quote of Jesus.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

John 1 pretty much clears up all debate.

Not really. Another matter of interpretation.

[IMRight]

The bell it rings for me says it is not a direct quote from Jesus. Are you claiming "proof" for something which hasn't happened? Revelation is just that, not a Scriptural quote of Jesus.

I'm sorry... it may be convenient for you, but are you under the impression that only the words in red are Scripture?

[Alex Murphy]

Are you claiming "proof" for something which hasn't happened? Revelation is just that, not a Scriptural quote of Jesus.

Are you saying that Revelation doesn't contain visions given to John, but only prophecies of future visions that haven't been given to John yet? Is The Book of Revelations akin to a post-dated check?

Here's the key questions for you, Reg. When John sees and hears the speaker in Rev. 1:8, is that occuring in the present (John's, that is) or the future? When John sees and hears the speaker in Rev. 1:17, is that occuring in the present (John's, that is) or the future? Is John told to give the message in 1:18 to the church now, or to sit on it until sometime in the future?

Who is the speaker in 1:8? In 1:17? In 1:18? In 2:8? How many "beginnings and ends" are there, anyway? What do each claim about themselves?

[SoothingDave]

The bell it rings for me says it is not a direct quote from Jesus. Are you claiming "proof" for something which hasn't happened? Revelation is just that, not a Scriptural quote of Jesus.

Do you mean you reject what the Book of Revelation says because it is prophesy and it hasn't happened yet?

In context, this is especially maddening. If Jesus says He is the beginning and the end, then it doesn't really matter when He says it? If He's all that, A to Z, then He is. It doesn't matter if He reveals this in a dream, 2000 years ago or next Thursday.

SD

[HarleyD]

"Surely you know many have these "ephiphanies" and later on fall away? How do you know yours is genuine, that it was truly of God? How do you know you're not just a goat who is convinced that he is a sheep?"

I know this may sound trite but in the end it comes down to our personal relationship to God. Each of us must examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith-the Bible is specific on evidence of our salvation.

Personally for me the bottom line is knowing and understanding what God has done in my life. Unfortunately it is impossible for me to share these personal miracles. They are either dismissed by others as rubbish or casted aside in disbelief mainly because it is my personal experience. But, I believe these personal and intimate relationship between the believer and our Lord Jesus is as God intended.

If one looks inside their heart and and can point to no miracles that God has performed for them they are empty tombs. They should seriously question whether they're in the faith. The greatest miracle is how God changes us and if one cannot point to God's changes in their life then they need to ask to see them. In the end it is a personal relationship between God and you and only YOU know what that is.