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Locked on 04/19/2004 7:52:52 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
This thread has 183 abuse reports. It’s now locked. Maybe you can all get along better on the next thread. |
Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Thanx.
Ohhh. You mean He was "an observant Jew" for that hour or two? I see.
And while the core of the Passover has not changed, there have been some modifications to the liturgy. I'm not aware of anything that would impact this "fourth cup" argument.
Huh? I just mentioned he was an observant jew. Most (even Catholic scholars) would agree with me.
And while the core of the Passover has not changed, there have been some modifications to the liturgy. I'm not aware of anything that would impact this "fourth cup" argument.
Maybe in reform Judaism. I doubt orthodox.
I think you're missing the point. Yes, I agree He was an observant Jew. The Jews at the time didn't think so (witness the trial & crucifiction for blasphemy, working on the Sabbath, etc). Jews today don't consider him particularly "observant" either since observant Jews don't claim to be the Messiah.
He either was what he claimed to be or a liar. Only if you believe He was who He claimed to be can you say you think He was an "observant Jew" (and in that case you are forced to re-re-re-re-re-convert.
Yes... He did.
No argument there. I'm simply pointing out that, since the Mods appeared on this thread following drstevej's suspension, and all four victims were (as I understand it) cited for posts made on this thread, it must have been someone else on this thread that first alerted the mods to the thread's activities, starting with the abuse report on drstevej.
Since none of you - nor the mods - have mentioned any other posters who were suspended, or even received a personal warning since drstevej's suspension, circumstantial evidence IMO points to an NES regular (or maybe a lurker) who talked to the mods seeking the suspension of drstevej. After all, one would hardly think one of "the swarm" (currently membership, anyway) would hit abuse on ourselves. So it was either an NES regular, a lurker, or a disgruntled Calvinist that first called the Mods down on us all. Either that, or one must believe that the Mod Squad is proactively following select posters around, looking for opportunities to suspend them.
But SD, IMO you right about the overall content of this thread having become an issue for the mods. It was CindyDawg's concern about who ratted the thread out, and when that I was trying to shed some light on.
Yes there is alot of it . First consider the words of Christ.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.
One can not desire what he can not see or hear. One must be born of the spirit to desire Christ.
Rememeber Paul quoted the OT that no man seeks after God . Men do not seek because they are spiritually unable to see , understand or desire God.
One needs to be born of the Spirit (regenerated ) to repent, before that time we did not understand our sinful condition
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6
Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
We were not "saved" IN our sin
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
We have to be raised from spiritual death before we can see our sin as God sees it
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Notice the order presented here
Arise from the dead THEN Christ gives you light
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
We were all dead in sin until we repented and believed.
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
Paul describes unregenerate man as continually suppressing the truth about God and replacing it with various forms of idolatry in order to serve his own sinful lusts (Rom. 1:18-32)
Can the Spirit of God inhabit an unrepentant man ? We know the Holy Spirit was sent to convict us of sin...so it would follow that one can not see his sin to confess and repent to salvation without first the action of the Holy Spirit on us. Can we pour NEW wine into an old wineskin? before the Holy Spirit can come and dwell in you , He must bring you spiritual awaking (quicking) so that he can convict you of your sin , That awaking leads to repentance and belief .
Boettner writes: “Man is a free agent but he cannot originate the love of God in his heart. His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside of himself. As the bird with a broken wing is ‘free’ to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? How can he come to God when he hates Him? This is the inability of the will under which man labors.”
“So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy” (Rom. 9:16). “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God“ (Jn. 1:13). “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (Jn. 15:16). “Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to my word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do” (Jn. 8:43-44). When Jesus said, “Without Me you can do nothing” (Jn. 15:5), He really meant nothing. Luther writes: “It is totally unheard of—grammar and logic to say that nothing is the same as something; to logicians, the thing is an impossibility, for the two are contradictory!”17 "
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
2) Calvinists see God's grace as Him enabling the will of a sinner to accept Jesus Christ as Lord. Is there Scriptural evidence for this as well?
Jhn 6:44No man can come
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Here is the problem that faces us. Every man that hears the Father comes . This is consistent with Isa
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
It is God that opens eyes and ears (regenerates ) so that His word ALWAYS accomplishes what He had intended...
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Salvation is all of God, from beginning to end
If you claim to be Jewish Messiah (I came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel) you're an observant Jew. You just won't cede any point. No matter how its spelled out for you.
He either was what he claimed to be or a liar. Only if you believe He was who He claimed to be can you say you think He was an "observant Jew" (and in that case you are forced to re-re-re-re-re-convert.
Sorry. I don't need your permission to comment on what I think things are meant when written (inspired or not).
If Jesus has the authority of God, then why do you not believe Him here?
Why do you assume I don't believe Him here?
SD-"Well, in your estimation, you wouldn't."
There's nothing I can do that makes me right with God. Christ did it all. I can't earn it nor can I maintain it. It is a free gift. I can only follow His example through His strength fully depended on Him. Any good works that I have (baptism included) is because of our Lord Jesus to the praise of His glory. When I fail to depend on Him then I fail but I don't lose my salvation.
And since you've recommended 1 John may I suggest the following verse:
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."
Mack I answered a similar post to this. But I will repeat it.
Whether God has given men the grace needed to hear at a certain point (ears to hear) is not our business. Our business is obedience to the gospel . Giving the gospel is not dependent on the mans hearing or excepting . What is our responsibility is we are not to facilitate another gospel . We can not say on one hand that we believe you are perishing and on the other lets pretend that we are best friends ( which is forbidden by scripture)
I believe this happens from thinking that if we can just get them to like me enough maybe we can get them to accept the gospel and get saved. The proof is in the pudding that it is not true.
No, I've ceeded THAT point (in fact I MADE that point)... "If you claim to be Jewish Messiah you're an observant Jew..." (IF, and ONLY if you ARE the Messiah).
You see my point? Only someone who believes He was truthful can claim He was "observant". if He was lying about being the Messiah then He was hardly "observant" (blasphemy not falling well within the bounds of "observant Judaism").
Are you saying you belive He was telling the truth about being the Messiah?
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