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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Yes, that's what I said.
I believe our choices are foreknown by God and that everything is predestined according to the choices God already know we're going to make. Consequently, God can write Revelations and know the outcome. Likewise, God can foreordain people like John the Baptist and Jeremiah, and harden the hearts of Pharaoh because He knows their thoughts and choices beforehand.
Your question implied where you were going with it (as did mine).
Answer? If it was me my thought would be "Jesus is here - follow Him." But it wouldn't be some hypnosis, mind control, or puppetry. "Drop what they were doing and immediately follow Him" does not imply lack of free will.
How about that?! According to the "free will"ers, the entire salvation of the whole world - wrought as it was by Jesus' crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension - was wholly dependent on Judas Iscariot's sovereignly free will - and dependent on Judas making a poor choice with that free will. Why, if only Jesus had acted "more Christlike" to Judas in those three years, maybe He would have lived to a ripe old age! This whole Jesus-getting-crucified thing was a fluke! We should petition Mel Gibson to rename his movie The Accident of The Christ
. Forget this whole "from the foundation of the world" stuff - God actually gambled the redemption of ALL of Creation, including Jesus' incarnation, ministry, and crucifixion, on one man's exercising bad judgement during a single week of human history, even after that man was exposed to Jesus for three years. I didn't know God gambled. Maybe God had to instruct Jesus to "really piss off Judas during Passover Week" just to set the die in motion.
Do you equate omniscience with determinism? (I am avoiding the terms "foreknowledge" and "predestination" because they imply temporal conditions which don't apply to God).
I find your answer very interesting. If I am reading you correctly, you seem to be saying that "predestination" is nothing more than God's a priori sanction or affirmation of our future/not-yet-happened-but-foreknown choices.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
If all this is simply a matter of God's confirmation or endorsement of our choices, I don't see how this acknowledges God's absolute sovereignty any more than does the Arminian position.
Unfortunately, this differs not at all with the works-based salvation preached by Romanists and Arminians alike. Through some innate, higher ability on your part, you have chosen wisely, while those who are less righteous, logical, intelligent, or intuitive than you, have chosen poorly.
Additionally, if God "sees" your actual choice ahead of time, how do you imagine you could ever do anything else BUT make the decision to follow Christ? If something exists in the mind of God (especially your name among the elect,) it has existed for all time, and is irrevocable.
So if we are God's creations, as He made us, and if God is "aware" that you will choose Christ and are saved through that choice, could you ever have done anything else?
If the answer is no, then your choice is not really a choice, but part of God's eternal plan for His creation.
And that is part of the great comfort of Christ, but so many choose to miss it.
Likely, you may come back with the old saw, "Why can't 'free will' be part of God's plan?"
And I will respond (trying to hurry up this conversation on Good Friday) with the question to you, "Is there 'free will' in heaven?"
You may be confounded by this question, and come back with the accusation, "Why would God make us robots in order to force us to love Him?"
And my answer to that would be the same as it always is...
"If believing that God is God and I am not; if believing every leaf that falls from the trees is ordained by God Himself; if believing the hairs on my head are all numbered; if believing God ordained the end from the beginning; if believing no one knows the names of the elect whom God chose from all races and nations of the world before time began; if believing God's plan for creation was written in the heavens before the foundation of the world; if believing Christ's sacrifice is the very purpose for all existence; then I am a fortunate and happy robot-sheep in God's regenerated and redeemed woolly flock.
Ewe should be so lucky. 8~)
But you did have the power, that is the issue. God was handcuffed in heaven until you FORCED Him to act. He had to respond to your prayer, He had no free will in this .
If God acted with out the first step being taken by man ... you have Calvinism
The salvation plan taught in the free will churches has a God without a vote in it at all . Mans will is what forces the action , not Gods grace.
Calvinists believe in free will too John, we just do not believe that man has the ability to choose to repent and believe without Gods grace first giving man the will to believe , the ability to have faith .
Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do. But your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus' parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, "I will do this; I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods... But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul is required of you" (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you
Walter Chantry
My Pastor explains our free will this way .
He draws a large circle that he labels Gods will , within it he draws a much smaller circle that he labels free will or human liberty .
He then explains that most things are Gods and Gods alone. But within that He allows us to exercise our free will. That would be things like choosing schools , occupations , spouses , where we will live etc. But then he notes that our free will choices are completely within the larger circle that is Gods will.
So all of our choices , even those freely made , are within Gods will and plan for us
That is exactly what I understood HarleyD to be saying in his #2,883.
If the answer is no, then your choice is not really a choice, but part of God's eternal plan for His creation.
I take it, then, that you view "free will" as an illusion?
And that is part of the great comfort of Christ, but so many choose to miss it.
In what way do you see this as comforting? I'm genuinely curious.
Likely, you may come back with the old saw, "Why can't 'free will' be part of God's plan?"
Would you say that it is impossible that "free will" would be part of God's plan?
Only the Free-Will that would allow you to not act according to your nature.
That is the reading you may like, but it is not what it says
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him
It clearly says PUT , now who would have the ability to PUT Satan into the heart Of Judas?
We know from the bible that God remains sovereign over satan . Satan can not act without the permission of God .(read Job)
Something that may slip by unnoticed unless you realize this is God then gave Judas permission to betray Him)
Jhn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Pay attention to the context. Did Jesus call this rich young ruler or did the rich young ruler seek Jesus out and want to follow Him on his terms?
We only know that this young man sought to follow Jesus on his own terms because of the fact that he chose not to follow Jesus on Jesus' terms.
All of the Apostles were not sought out by Jesus ... at least a few were brought by Andrew to meet Jesus.
And there is no getting around the fact that, no matter what the circumstances of their meeting, Jesus did invite the young man to follow Him.
According to Scripture, the rich young ruler came running and fell at Jesus feet, no ?
Similar to the coming of Nicodemus, no ...
Did any who followed Jesus for a time stop following Him at some point ?John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Yes, but this returns to my previous comment above. Did Jesus call them or did they come to Him on their terms and leave when they could not abide according to His terms?
Of course Judas was one that Jesus called who subsequently left.
LOL. Calvinists don't mince words, Mack. That's why we like you. 8~)
But Calvinists don't call anyone "schmuck" like I was called last week.
Proclaiming and profaning are two very different things.
Why can you not "choose" to lose" the Holy Spirit? You do have free will.
My Pastor explains our free will this way . He draws a large circle that he labels Gods will , within it he draws a much smaller circle that he labels free will or human liberty . He then explains that most things are Gods and Gods alone. But within that He allows us to exercise our free will. That would be things like choosing schools , occupations , spouses , where we will live etc. But then he notes that our free will choices are completely within the larger circle that is Gods will.
So all of our choices , even those freely made , are within Gods will and plan for us.
I do not disagree with such a presentation.
Our free will is encompassed and limited by ... the plan and will of God.
Such free will as we have is granted by God to accomplish His purposes.
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