The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[SoothingDave]

When the "heathens" and "cult members" act as obnoxious as the Calvinists do, they get shunned as well.

There is simply no Biblical mandate for being tone deaf and overbearing in your presentation.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Can't you answer my question?

SD

[RnMomof7]

That's an interesting example to use. Think about the sacrifice it replaced. If an acceptable lamb was sacrificed and you failed to eat it what happened? If an acceptable lamb was sacrificed and you failed to apply the blood to the door - what happened to your firstborn?
No further payment is required. But that doesn't mean you turned in the ticket - or even picket it up at the "will call" window. The existence of a sacrifice without the application of the sacrifice to the sin/person is without effect.

BINGO..Give the man a cupie doll.

The fact is that Christ could not have then died for the sin of ALL men..because if He did then all men would have to be saved (as God is just and would never demand double payment for some)

The fact is that the atonement (as in the example you gave ) is LIMITED

It is limited to those that repent and believe .

[CindyDawg]

How much clearer do I have to be. PLEASE KEEP YOUR DISTANCE for now. This isn't a game. You may have some valid points here but I'm not receptive to reading , much less thinking about them after what you continue to post about me. Please address any comebacks that you just have to ding me with by FM. To continue this would just shame us both .

[ET(end tyranny)]

If my nature is to sin, then how can a just God damn us for doing what we are wired to do?

YHWH wants people to take responsibility for their actions and make changes in their lives. Make yourself a new heart and spirit! YOU must do it YOURSELF! WOW, what a concept! The Redeemer/YHWH doesn't do it, YOU must do it.

Isaiah 59 (JPS)
20 And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith YHWH.

Isaiah 59 (NASB)
20   "A (1) Redeemer will come to Zion,  And to those who (2) turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.

cross-references

1. Rom 11:26
2. Ezek 18:30, 31

Romans 11
26   and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "(1) THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

cross-references
1. Is 59:20


Ezekiel 18
30   "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "(1) Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31   "(2) Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a (3) new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Isaiah 59 (MSG)
20"I'll arrive in Zion as Redeemer, to those in Jacob who leave their sins." GOD's Decree.

Isaiah 59
20He shall come as a Redeemer to Zion and to those in Jacob (Israel) who turn from transgression, says the Lord.


Isaiah 59 (NLT)
20"The Redeemer will come to Jerusalem,[1] " says the LORD, "to buy back those in Israel[2] who have turned from their sins.

Footnotes
1. 59:20a Hebrew to Zion
1. 59:20b Hebrew in Jacob.


Isaiah 59 (KJV)
20   And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.


Isaiah 59 (HNV)
20A Redeemer will come to Tziyon, and to those who turn from disobedience in Ya`akov, says the LORD.


Isaiah 59 (RSV)
20"And he will come to Zion as Redeemer, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.

YHWH our Redeemer goes to those who have turned away from transgression.

[IMRight]

If the "Christians" on this thread were as anxious to clean off the heresies of some of the posters here as they are to ward off the Calvinists

I think that if you just came here to point out that "Jesus is a god - not the God" is a heresy or "Jesus is NOT God, but IS the messiah" is a heresy. I don't think there would be a problem.

But you spend a lot more time telling other Christians off and fighting inter-denominational squables and insulting their beliefs than pointing out heresy. And putting "Christians" in quotes is an example. We're talking about Baptists here... while far from perfect :-) that isn't the same thing as a "cult".

Feel free to come in here ANY time to preach that Jesus Christ is Lord. Or that you need to believe in Him to be saved. TULIP, while wrong, is much closer to the truth than other errors that are common here. It really is "technique" and "temperment" that are being objected to.

[D-fendr]

I see it's time to talk basketball.

Here's a new story. (You probably remember it as an old story about football, but if I told you that one again, this one wouldn't be new.)

Jesus went to a basketball game.

No one recognized him; he blended right in. On his right hand was a big foam fake hand. Nothing on it but "#1" stamped in white on the palm; Jesus kept its huge index finger pointed up and balanced his hot dog on his lap.

He wore a t-shirt that had a cross on it, but that didn't give him away either, because the game was between Immaculate Conception University (ICU) and John Calvin University (JCU). So there were lots of crosses on shirts and signs all around the court.

It was a tense rivalry, and the game was for the championship, so the stands were packed and the fans were loud, even before the game started.

ICU scored first on a booming three-pointer and Jesus and the ICU fans leaped up and yelled proudly.

Then JCU took the ball down court slowly, worked a play masterfully and ended it with an easy layup. Jesus and the JCU fans roared in delight.

And so it went, back and forth, with each team's fans cheering loudly when they scored and Jesus cheering each time either team scored. Folks began to look at Jesus oddly, and then angrily. It was a very close game and tempers were on display as they always are in an tight, important sporting event held in one large room.

Finally one fan, sitting in the row in front of Jesus stood up and shouted what they'd all been thinking:

"Hey, buddy, just which team are you rooting for?!"

"Team?" Jesus answered, "I'm rooting for the players."

[SoothingDave]

You miss the point entirely. The sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to save all, but is efficacious only for those who accept it.

IMRight was making you see the distinction between saying the sacrifice happened, which it did, and each individual person accepting the sacrifice.

They are two different things. Jesus has enough Blood to save everyone. But not everyone will accept it.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Who won the game? ;-)

SD

[JohnnyM]

"Jesus has enough Blood to save everyone. But not everyone will accept it."

Which means it is only effective for those who believe in Him. Hence limited. The limit is man's belief in Him.

JM

[D-fendr]

It went into overtime and then a huge fight broke out. It was a while back, people still talk about the fight - but no one remembers the score anymore.

[SoothingDave]

Actually Limited Atonement, understood properly, is about the only TULIP I agree with. T is out, as is U and P. I don't remember what I is.

SD

[SoothingDave]

You should make it a hockey story then. Basketball is like soooo, two days ago. Stanley Cup begins tonight.

D

[malakhi]

her·e·sy
n. pl. her·e·sies

An opinion or a doctrine at variance with the speaker's religious beliefs.

cult mem·ber
n. pl. cult mem·bers

One who holds an opinion or a doctrine at variance with the speaker's religious beliefs.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

would have been space and time to teach Steve.

Steves was unteachable. He plans on teaching. Have you figured out what I was going to hell for two years ago?

[malakhi]

Heresy is in the eye of the beholder.

[SoothingDave]

Hey, you're posting today?

SD

[D-fendr]

But hockey games can end in a tie - where's the sport in that?

[D-fendr]

Impiety, n.: 
Your irreverence toward my deity. 
[Ambrose Bierce]

[IMRight]

Sorry to have to correct you again... but it's "Kewpie" doll. :-)

The fact is that Christ could not have then died for the sin of ALL men..because if He did then all men would have to be saved (as God is just and would never demand double payment for some)

I'm not sure you read my post. One does not imply the other. In my example He WOULD have "dies for ALL" but not had all apply the sacrifice. You're translating that as "only died for the ones who applied it". That only "doesn't follow" it's "incorrect".