The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[JohnnyM]

why dont you answer my questions? Why do you always divert and change the subject? I will set an example that I hope you follow.

"Is a REWARD a free gift?"

No

JM

[CindyDawg]

Sarah's sonogram showed a very big baby. She was just 6 lbs.

[ET(end tyranny)]

why dont you answer my questions? Why do you always divert and change the subject? I will set an example that I hope you follow.

You're the one that deflected. REWARD is found in both the Tanakh and the NT. Your 'free gift' is only found in the NT. A NT contrivance to steal souls from YHWH? The 'great delusion'?

Why do you keep ignoring and avoiding what the lexicon clearly says WAGES and REWARDS means?

[CindyDawg]

You still here?

[ET(end tyranny)]

Lexicon Greek 1342 dikaios {dik'-ah-yos} 3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life a) only Christ truly

Was Yehoshua wrong then, when he said:

Luke 1
5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

[JohnnyM]

"I like the PROPHET Yehoshua just fine"

You dont believe He is the Son of God or give Him the honor He is due.

John 5:23 - That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

You dont believe He died for your sins.

Luke 22:19-20 - And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

John 10
14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

You believe you can come to the Father outside of Christ

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

Doesn't sound like you two are just fine.

JM

[Quester]

There is a differenent between fore-knowledge(?) and pre-determination. As you say , God knows who will accept and who won't but I don't believe he says "hmm, I think I'll keep this one, no not this one etc.

I think that He chooses those who turn out the way He wants. (Of course He knows how everyone will turn out).

It's a fairly complex issue (like the nature of God) ... I don't pretend to completely understand it.

I, ultimately, trust and rely upon the goodness & love of God.

[JohnnyM]

"Was Yehoshua wrong then, when he said: "

Wait a minute. Jesus never said that. That was Luke saying that, unless of course you see Luke as the inspired Word of God (i.e. Jesus).

Also, isn't it easy to pick and choose definitions of a word to suit your cause and ignore the others. kid of like picking and choosing which Scripture is inspired an which is corrupt.

JM

[ET(end tyranny)]

He came to bring sinners to repentance. YHWH tells us that HE doesn't give His glory anyone else.

Isaiah 42
8 I am YHWH, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.

Paul tells us that Yehoshua was a MAN approved of G-d/YHWH. Just like the lexcion defined righteousness. A state approved of G-d.

[JohnnyM]

You still haven't answered the question, even after I became an example for you. Is a free gift a reward?

JM

[ET(end tyranny)]

Wait a minute. Jesus never said that. That was Luke saying that, unless of course you see Luke as the inspired Word of God (i.e. Jesus).

Are you suggesting that Luke made things up?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Which goes back to my original question. How can God damn a cat for not being a dog and be called Just? If my nature is to sin. If I am wired from the womb to sin and sin willfully, then how can a just God damn me for that?

JM

((((crickets))))

BigMack

[JohnnyM]

I never said he was, but you are the one attributing Luke's words to Jesus. So did Jesus say them? Is Luke the Word of Jesus (God)?

JM

[ET(end tyranny)]

You still haven't answered the question, even after I became an example for you. Is a free gift a reward?

It's a non issue. As I mentioned earlier, REWARDS is found in both the Tanakh and the NT. While 'free gift' is found only in the NT. For something to be true in the NT is must be supported by the Tanakh.

Your question thus become a non issue. :)

Also I noticed some verse which suggest that the gift is the Holy Ghost and not Salvation.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I never said he was, but you are the one attributing Luke's words to Jesus. So did Jesus say them? Is Luke the Word of Jesus (God)?

Well, I was taking Luke at his word of reporting honestly what Yehoshua said, but maybe you are right and Luke distorted the quote. A quote of a quote still traces back to the quoter.

[AAABEST]

I saw your screenname on the main board and decided to search your posting history because I was afraid to ask how those girls were doing (in case the news wasn't good).

I'm glad to hear that it seems like they're going to pull through and recover. God bless.

[Codie]

You should be a Catholic.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'm assuming you've read the Bible. Because of Adam's sin, we are all sinners, and none of us seek the face of God.

That's why it is only God who saves.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespass and sins...For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Jesus Christ unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:1,8-10

It doesn't get clearer than that.

We are ALL fallen and dead in sin. We cannot save ourselves.

God, for His own good purpose, has chosen some from before the foundation of the world to redeem by paying the penalty for their sins with the sacrifice of Christ.

How does any of us know we are among those fortunate sinners whom God shelters "under the shadow of His wings?"

Here's how -- we read the Bible and understand. We hear God's instructions in Scripture and know the Holy Ghost is abiding with us.

We recognize we are fallen, dead in sin and trespass, unworthy of even a glimpse of God's splendor. We see that the color of our skin, our nationalities, our station in life, our personalities, our age, sex, political preference, choice of breakfast cereal, all mean nothing to our salvation. God chooses from all men and nations by His will.

Aware of ourselves as sinners, we fall to our knees in remorse, knowing we're completely responsible for every transgression we've committed. And we promise to sin no more, knowing we will fail in that promise, but also secure that God is with us always and will not let us fail Him.

We believe that Jesus Christ came to earth as God's gracious gift to us as payment for our sins. We read Christ's words and know that all truth exists withing His teaching. We believe Him when he says that the Son is the only door through which we can pass into the Father's house.

We recognize the unmerited gift that is our faith; that only God could open our eyes and ears to the truth of the Word. We love Him because He loved us first.

Our hearts are thus transformed by God, and we are born again.

We then are commanded to go out into the world, preaching God's glory, because God uses each of us to His purpose. As RnMom has said over and over -- only God saves. But God expects the Word to be spoken clearly and accurately, so that He might use its message to touch whatever other hearts He chooses.

And finally we are content and secure in the knowledge that God is in control of His creation; and that nothing can loosen His hold of us.

Dogs cannot become cats. Cats cannot become dogs.

But sinners become the inhabitants of Heaven by God's eternal decree as part of His divine plan for creation, known by Him from before the foundation of the world.

Question: What is the chief purpose of man?

Answer: The chief purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. -- Westminster Shorter Catechism

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Why is that?

BigMack

[JohnnyM]

"He came to bring sinners to repentance. YHWH tells us that HE doesn't give His glory anyone else.

Isaiah 42 8 I am YHWH, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images. "

Phillipians 2
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 1:6 - And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, and let all the angels of God worship Him.

JM