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Locked on 04/19/2004 7:52:52 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I'm not sure who this puts me in doctrinal contention with.
Everyone! :-)
Then I surely have accomplished my purpose.
This post may help you to understand.
SD
Seems like when the Calvinists show up, everyone gets super-sensitive and feels the need to admonish.
I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked.
I believe any reasonable person will agree Faith leads to works, leads to love.
When one attacks "Faith Alone" with their own disingenuous definition simply ask them to justify "Works Alone".
SD
Oh, and the Moderator's request was made totally aside from the "Holy Day" thing. That was my addition, made as a result of my being summoned in here today to ask everyone to play nice. I was not planning on posting at all today or tomorrow.
Now maybe I can go enjoy my Passover?
Yes, unless you claim that God can act contrary to His nature.
Do you?
Of course God can act contrary to His nature. But He will not.
That doesn't really address the situation with us humans, however, which is where the difficulty lies.
SD
OK let's ask one.
Mr. Kerry became combative when told that some conservatives were criticizing him for being a Roman Catholic who supported policies, like abortion rights and same-sex unions, that are at odds with Catholic teaching.
"Who are they?" he demanded of his questioner. "Name them. Are they the same legislators who vote for the death penalty, which is in contravention of Catholic teaching?"
He added: "I'm not a church spokesman. I'm a legislator running for president. My oath is to uphold the Constitution of the United States in my public life. My oath privately between me and God was defined in the Catholic church by Pius XXIII and Pope Paul VI in the Vatican II, which allows for freedom of conscience for Catholics with respect to these choices, and that is exactly where I am. And it is separate. Our constitution separates church and state, and they should be reminded of that."
OK Ask Him
Let's not.
You constantly complain that NC's don't understand "Catholic" teaching and just to "ask one" for the correct teaching.
Yes, a respected one. The rest of your post is nonsense. Your feigned ignorance is transparent.
SD
CD, the following is something I wrote up a while ago on the predestination question ...I believe in God's predestination of the events of the world, including the response of men (and women) to the truth of His Gospel.
It is fully reasonable that God, Who created all as He pleased in the beginning, ... and Who, can see the end of such a creation from the beginning ... has, therefore, fashioned His creation such that His will should be accomplished through the culmination of that creation.
On an individual basis, this means that ... God knows, ahead of time, ALL of my choices in this life, including my choice as to the acceptance of the truth of His gospel, ... AND ... has caused the conditions of creation to be such that ... when I would come to be, ... in the course of the outworking of His creation, ... I would make the exact choices in this life that I have.
So, I do not see how we can possibly escape the conclusion that God has predestined the events of this world, ... once again, ... including the response of every man (and woman) to the truth of His gospel.
That said, ... I do not see that God could not do such as I have outlined above ... AND ... at the same time, allow men and women to choose between the GOOD and the EVIL.
I would note that one man who ... we would agree ... CLEARLY had the capacity to actually choose between GOOD and EVIL ... was ADAM in the garden.
I also understand that ADAM's failure to choose the GOOD over the EVIL has had the result that we, ... his descendents, ... come into the world with a SINFUL nature (i.e. one which is bent toward SIN).
I am also willing, for the purposes of this discussion, to tentatively agree that our state is such that we cannot now CHOOSE the GOOD ... and that, for us to CHOOSE the GOOD, our state must be CHANGED (by GOD) such that we are given such a capacity.
I also believe that we agree that God does work a change in the hearts of those He calls to accept His gospel.
What I am not convinced of ... is that this work which God performs in the hearts of those He calls mandates a CHOICE for Him (i.e. GOOD).
Could not God restore us to the state of ADAM, who could truly CHOOSE between the GOOD and the EVIL, such that we could, individually, make the same choice ?
I pose the preceding because my understanding of the Scriptures has left me with the CLEAR impression that GOD does, indeed, place such a CHOICE before us.
All throughout the Scriptures, God commands the sons of men to ... choose, come, believe, receive, etc ...
This would all be so much of a delusion if man, indeed, has not ever the power to choose.
The gospels record that JESUS expressed anger at the obstinacy of the Pharisees (as well as others) in rejecting Him and His message.
Why would He be angry if He knew that they had not the ability to CHOOSE to believe ?
No. You inherit a sin "nature" or the inclination/bent to sin. You are not a "sinner" until you actually sin yourself.
No action on my part has made me a sinner. I sin because I am a sinner. It is my nature to sin. I am born a sinner. With that being the case, no action on my part has damned me to Hell, because I was damned to Hell from the womb.
So aborted babies go to He11? Those lost in childbirth?
Yep. In some way we can not fully comprehend, our truly free choices advance the events that God foreordained. One falls into error when one takes either freedom or predestination to its extremes to the occlusion of the other.
SD
He can? God could lie? God could be unjust? God could sin? But He just chooses not to? Is that official RCC dogma?
The Bible says that it is impossible for God to tell a lie, not that He just chooses not to, but that He can't.
That doesn't really address the situation with us humans, however, which is where the difficulty lies.
But it does. Because if God must act according to His nature but we do not. Then we exceed God in our capabilities. In effect making us greater than God in this area.
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