Question for Freeper Catholics

1/27/04 | LS

[LS]

I recently watched "The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc," starring Milla Jovovich. Not being a Catholic, I had some questions:

1) At the end, the notes said Joan was "canonized" 500 years later(approx. 1930s, I guess). Does canonization automatically mean one is "sainted?" Or are they different? If so, what is the difference?

2) What are the prerequisites to be either "canonized" or "sainted," if they are different?

3) Specifically to the movie---if anyone saw it---was the Dustin Hoffman character supposed to be Lucifer, the accuser?

4) I'm weak historically on this: was the film accurate about Joan often doing things on her own ("if you love me, fight for me") as opposed to leading the armies "in the name of God?" I suppose it depends on what you think of Joan, but among believers, is the consensus that she indeed received instructions from God, or that she was a fruitloop?

[TomB]

Ooooooh. This'll be FUN!

[kellynla]

A local bishop investigates the candidate's life and writings for evidence of heroic virtue. The information uncovered by the bishop is sent to the Vatican.

A panel of theologians and the cardinals of the Congregation for Cause of Saints evaluate the candidate's life.

If the panel approves, the pope proclaims that the candidate is venerable, which means that the person is a role model of Catholic virtues.

The next step toward sainthood is beatification. Beatification allows a person to be honored by a particular group or region. In order to beatify a candidate, it must be shown that the person is responsible for a posthumous miracle. Martyrs, those who died for their religious cause, can be beatified without evidence of a miracle.

In order for the candidate to be considered a saint, there must be proof of a second posthumous miracle. If there is, the person is canonized

[bigeasy_70118]

In order for the candidate to be considered a saint, there must be proof of a second posthumous miracle

Do card tricks count?

[wtc911]

If you can do them from the grave...

[big'ol_freeper]

I have never seen this "version" of the Joan of Arc story but from what I have read the film was done with a rather obvious anti-Catholic bent. Might want to check out a couple of other Joan of Arc films such as the one starring LeeLee Sobieski which is supposed to be much more balanced.

[kellynla]

The first step in becoming a saint is the "Prejuridical Phase." Financial support is procured and documentation of historical facts and divine favors is begun. Those supporting the canonization petition the local bishop officially to initiate the "Ordinary Process." Tradition once held that a person must be dead fifty years before this process could begin. Today, no time constraint is provided, but a five year wait is typical.

During the next phase, the "Informative Phase," the local bishop determines whether or not there is merit in the case. He establishes a tribunal to determine whether or not the deceased has become an object of public veneration since his or her death.

The "Judgement of Orthodoxy" follows, during which time officials collect and scrutinize the writings of the deceased. Most "causes" that are blocked are held up at this point. Oftentimes, this blockage occurs because officials find questionable content in the written material they study. Promoters of the cause are permitted to try to disprove the findings of the investigators.

The fourth phase on the road to sainthood is the "Roman Phase." Once records from the local bishop are forwarded to Rome, a "postulator" (often a priest) is assigned to represent the cause of the petitioners. A canon lawyer is also assigned to the case. The lawyer presents a case arguing that the cause justifies continued investigation.

Also at this time, the Promoter of the Faith or "Devil’s Advocate" poses objections to the case. Presentations by the lawyer and the Promoter of the Faith may be made back and forth over a period of several months to many years. The resulting decision is sent to the pope who, unless he finds fault with the cause before him, states a "Decree of Introduction."

The "Historical Section" follows. During this phase, Vatican officials research the historical accuracy of the facts of the life of the deceased. At some point around this time, the body of the deceased is exhumed for identification by the local bishop. If the bishop discovers that the deceased is not actually buried at a particular site, the cause continues, but grave-side devotions must cease. The discovery of a body without corruption (as in the case of John Nuemann who was never embalmed) may help the cause by increasing devotion and interest. The Roman Catholic Church, however, does not recognize incorruptibility as a sure sign of sanctity.

Miracles are key to the process of declaring sainthood. All miracles must be shown to be acts of God performed through the intercession of the deceased. Usually, two miracles are needed before beatification, although often martyrs are beatified without such evidence. At this time, the pope and cardinals agree that the deceased shall be venerated and called "Blessed" (as in the case of Blessed Katharine Drexel of Philadelphia, PA). Sometimes, because of controversial questions or political complications, the pope may advance or postpone a beatification. For example, when Pope John Paul II visited South America some years ago, both Argentina and Chile had persons they wanted beatified. It would have been difficult politically for the Pope to beatify a candidate from only one country. After beatification, two additional miracles are needed before the "Blessed" is officially canonized and declared a saint at St. Peter’s Basilica.

Modern methods of investigation into the historical accuracy of the lives of those nearing canonization owe a lot to Fr. John Bolland, S.J. Bolland and a band of like-minded Jesuits began in the 1600's to record official histories of the Church’s saints without the embellishments of legend and public devotion. Christopher (the name means "Christ-bearer") and Veronica (from the Greek for "true image") had been made saints on the basis of legend. Even non-humans (such as St. Michael the Archangel) had been declared saints. And both John the Baptist and the "Good Thief" had been made saints even though they died before formal Christianity even existed.

So why does the Church bother with the difficult and time-consuming process of making saints?

Despite the fact that Catholics believe all those who go to heaven to be saints, the recognition and veneration of specific holy men and women provide models of Christian living for the faithful, for example, a St. Francis of Assisi may inspire us to a deeper poverty of spirit, a St. Vincent dePaul may remind us of our obligation to the poor, a St. Maria Goretti of our obligation to be chaste, a St. Joseph to the dignity of work. Catholics believe also that we are united with all these people who are in heaven through the "communion of saints." A Catholic does not "worship" the saints; rather, he or she asks them to present his or her needs to God from their privileged position.

Paul F. WinningtonIII, '98
St. Joseph's University
http://www.sju.edu

[livius]

Actually, the function of the Church is not to "make" the saint, but simply to proclaim that this person has indeed been found to have lead a very worthy life, have had special gifts, and is worthy of veneration. The latter does not mean worship, but simply respect and the honor you would show to any living person who you thought to live a very holy life. People are not canonized (that is, declared saints) in lifetime because - well, you never know. Death seals whatever you have done, however, and it is then that the Church begins to examine their lives.

Catholics believe that the saints are our "older brothers" in Heaven. That is, we don't pray to them the way we pray to God, but simply ask them to pray to God for us and to intercede on our behalf.

As for Joan of Arc, she was not a fruitloop, but somebody living through an enormously difficult time in history. Not all saints have visions (in fact, most don't), and most people who claim to have visions are looked at with suspicion by the Church. But in canonizing her, the Church declared that her visions were probably genuine. I say "probably," because the Church does not demand that a particular vision be accepted or even that a particular saint be venerated. In an sense, all the Church is doing is saying that there is no obstacle to this, and those who want to do so may safely do so, without fearing that they are being mislead by Satan.

Hope this helps.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm Canonization and Beatification

[jla]

Here the film is reviewed for it's historical accuracy.
There's a link at the bottom for the site's Main Index Pg. This is one of the better websites I've come across regarding my favorite Saint, Jeanne d'Arc.

[Unam Sanctam]

A quick answer to numbers 1 and 2:

Yes, being canonized means the Church officially recognizes someone as a saint.

The present day canonization process can take decades or even centuries and begins with an investigation by the local bishop, including:

The local bishop conducts inquiries and reviews relating to faith, morals and miracles. The main question being “Is there evidence that the venerable servant of God practiced virtues both theological and cardinal, and in a heroic degree?”
This information is passed on to the pope’s Congregation for the Causes of Saints for a more intense review.
Was the candidate a martyr or did he/she live the virtues daily in a heroic sense?
In order to beatified (except in the case of martyrs), God must grant a miracle as a result of a specific petition to the candidate. Miracles are considered proof that the person is in heaven and can intercede for us.
Once another miracle is granted, the candidate may be officially canonized.

[Consort]

Steps to Sainthood:
1. Venerable: Deceased person recognized as having heroic virtues.
2. Blessed (Beatified): Attributes of charity and heroic virtue, one miracle, acquired through the individual's intercession.
3. Canonized (Sainted): Two miracles, though a Pope may waive these requirements. Martyrdom does not usually require a miracle.

[CourtneyLeigh]

I agree with LS,
This will be fun,
I'm gonna sit back enjoy the responses!
;)

[Salvation]

Aren't you all being a little bit more than sarcastic, rather than really finding out some new facts?

Might I direct you to Luke and the story of the healing of the paralytic. The paralytic did nothing. It was the faith of his four friends who lowered him down through the roof that caused Jesus not only to forgive the sins of the paralytic, but also to heal the man's paralysis.

So do prayers of someone of faith such as the Blessed Virgin Mary or even you invoke healing from Christ?

The faith of these four friends (as told in Luke) invoked the mercy and compassion of Christ and lead to the healing of their friend, both physically and spiritually.

Prayers to saints can and do produce results, sometimes miraculous in nature. Once again, let me ask, why are all of you so sarcastic?

[reed_inthe_wind]

and most people who claim to have visions are looked at with suspicion by the Church.

That is so true. They think I am nuts. (haha)

[Salvation]

Sorry I got a little confused there. My apologies.

[karnage]

Besson's film is anti-Catholic claptrap. It presents Joan as a lunatic and those who follow her as simpletons. Historically, it is also wildly inaccurate. The CBS miniseries starring Leelee Sobieski was more balanced, better drama, and better history. The definitive Joan film so far is Carl Th. Dreyer's silent classic, "La Passione de Jeanne D'Arc." Ronald F. Maxwell, maker of "Gettysburg" and "Gods and Generals," has long been planning a film on Joan that will, when it is made, be one of the bets entries in the genre.

[farmfriend]

Don't you have a Catholic list? Actually, I think I'm on it too.

[Salvation]

Could you please move this to the Religion Forum?

Thanks