The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 15 (The Nature of Man)

15. STATE IN WHICH MAN WAS CREATED. THE FACULTIES OF THE SOUL - THE IMAGE OF GOD - FREE WILL - ORIGINAL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I. The necessary rules to be observed in considering the state of man before the fall being laid down, the point first considered is the creation of the body, and the lesson taught by its being formed out of the earth, and made alive, sec. 1.
II. The immortality of the human soul is proved by various solid arguments, sec. 2.
III. The image of God (the strongest proof of the soul's immortality) is considered, and various absurd fancies are refuted, sec. 3.
IV. Several errors which obscure the light of truth being dissipated, follows a philosophical and theological consideration of the faculties of the soul before the fall.

1. A twofold knowledge of God, viz., before the fall and after it. The former here considered. Particular rules or precautions to be observed in this discussion. What we are taught by a body formed ant of the dust, and tenanted by a spirit.

3. The image of God one of the strongest proofs of the immortality of the soul. What meant by this image. The dreams of Osiander concerning the image of God refuted. Whether any difference between "image" and "likeness." Another objection of Osiander refuted. The image of God conspicuous in the whole Adam.

4. The image of God is in the soul. Its nature may be learnt from its renewal by Christ. What comprehended under this renewal. What the image of God in man before the fall. In what things it now appears. When and where it will be seen in perfection.

5. The dreams of the Manichees and of Servetus, as to the origin of the soul, refuted. Also of Osiander, who denies that there is any image of God in man without essential righteousness.

6. The doctrine of philosophers as to the faculties of the soul generally discordant, doubtful, and obscure. The excellence of the soul described. Only one soul in each man. A brief review of the opinion of philosophers as to the faculties of the soul. What to be thought of this opinion.

7. The division of the faculties of the soul into intellect and will, more agreeable to Christian doctrine.

8. The power and office of the intellect and will in man before the fall. Man's free will. This freedom lost by the fall - a fact unknown to philosophers. The delusion of Pelagians and Papists. Objection as to the fall of man when free, refuted.

(Man's nature deformed; yet his soul bears, though almost obliterated, the image of God, 1-4)
1. Man proceeded spotless from God's hand; therefore he may not shift the blame for his sins to the Creator

We have now to speak of the creation of man, not only because of all the works of God it is the noblest, and most admirable specimen of his justice, wisdom, and goodness, but, as we observed at the outset, we cannot clearly and properly know God unless the knowledge of ourselves be added. This knowledge is twofold, - relating, first, to the condition in which we were at first created; and, secondly to our condition such as it began to be immediately after Adam's fall. For it would little avail us to know how we were created if we remained ignorant of the corruption and degradation of our nature in consequence of the fall. At present, however, we confine ourselves to a consideration of our nature in its original integrity. And, certainly, before we descend to the miserable condition into which man has fallen, it is of importance to consider what he was at first. For there is need of caution, lest we attend only to the natural ills of man, and thereby seem to ascribe them to the Author of nature; impiety deeming it a sufficient defence if it can pretend that everything vicious in it proceeded in some sense from God, and not hesitating, when accused, to plead against God, and throw the blame of its guilt upon Him. Those who would be thought to speak more reverently of the Deity catch at an excuse for their depravity from nature, not considering that they also, though more obscurely, bring a charge against God, on whom the dishonour would fall if anything vicious were proved to exist in nature.

Seeing, therefore, that the flesh is continually on the alert for subterfuges, by which it imagines it can remove the blame of its own wickedness from itself to some other quarter, we must diligently guard against this depraved procedure, and accordingly treat of the calamity of the human race in such a way as may cut off every evasion, and vindicate the justice of God against all who would impugn it. We shall afterwards see, in its own place, (Book 2 chap. 1: sec. 3,) how far mankind now are from the purity originally conferred on Adam. And, first, it is to be observed, that when he was formed out of the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7; 18:27) a curb was laid on his pride - nothing being more absurd than that those should glory in their excellence who not only dwell in tabernacles of clay (Job 4:19), but are themselves in part dust and ashes. But God having not only deigned to animate a vessel of clay, but to make it the habitation of an immortal spirit, Adam might well glory in the great liberality of his Maker.

Moreover, there can be no question that man consists of a body and a soul; meaning by soul, an immortal though created essence, which is his nobler part. Sometimes he is called a spirit. But though the two terms, while they are used together differ in their meaning, still, when spirit is used by itself it is equivalent to soul, as when Solomon speaking of death says, that the spirit returns to God who gave it, (Eccles. 12:7.) And Christ, in commending his spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46), and Stephen his to Christ (Acts 7:59), simply mean, that when the soul is freed from the prison-house of the body, God becomes its perpetual keeper. Those who imagine that the soul is called a spirit because it is a breath or energy divinely infused into bodies, but devoid of essence, err too grossly, as is shown both by the nature of the thing, and the whole tenor of Scripture. It is true, indeed, that men cleaving too much to the earth are dull of apprehension, nay, being alienated from the Father of Lights (James 1:17), are so immersed in darkness as to imagine that they will not survive the grave; still the light is not so completely quenched in darkness that all sense of immortality is lost. Conscience, which, distinguishing, between good and evil, responds to the judgement of God, is an undoubted sign of an immortal spirit. How could motion devoid of essence penetrate to the judgement-seat of God, and under a sense of guilt strike itself with terror? The body cannot be affected by any fear of spiritual punishment. This is competent only to the soul, which must therefore be endued with essence. Then the mere knowledge of a God sufficiently proves that souls which rise higher than the world must be immortal, it being impossible that any evanescent vigour could reach the very fountain of life.

In fine, while the many noble faculties with which the human mind is endued proclaim that something divine is engraven on it, they are so many evidences of an immortal essence. For such sense as the lower animals possess goes not beyond the body, or at least not beyond the objects actually presented to it. But the swiftness with which the human mind glances from heaven to earth, scans the secrets of nature, and, after it has embraced all ages, with intellect and memory digests each in its proper order, and reads the future in the past, clearly demonstrates that there lurks in man a something separated from the body. We have intellect by which we are able to conceive of the invisible God and angels - a thing of which body is altogether incapable. We have ideas of rectitude, justice, and honesty - ideas which the bodily senses cannot reach. The seat of these ideas must therefore be a spirit. Nay, sleep itself, which stupefying the man, seems even to deprive him of life, is no obscure evidence of immortality; not only suggesting thoughts of things which never existed, but foreboding future events. I briefly touch on topics which even profane writers describe with a more splendid eloquence. For pious readers, a simple reference is sufficient.

Were not the soul some kind of essence separated from the body, Scripture would not teach that we dwell in houses of clay (Job 4:19), and at death remove from a tabernacle of flesh; that we put off that which is corruptible, in order that, at the last day, we may finally receive according to the deeds done in the body. These, and similar passages which everywhere occur, not only clearly distinguish the soul from the body, but by giving it the name of man, intimate that it is his principal part. Again, when Paul exhorts believers to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit (II Cor. 7:1), he shows that there are two parts in which the taint of sin resides. Peter, also, in calling Christ the Shepherd and Bishop of souls (I Peter 2:25), would have spoken absurdly if there were no souls towards which he might discharge such an office. Nor would there be any ground for what he says concerning the eternal salvation of souls (I Peter 1:9), or for his injunction to purify our souls, or for his assertion that fleshly lusts war against the soul (I Peter 2:11p); neither could the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews say, that pastors watch as those who must give an account for our souls (Heb. 13:17p), if souls were devoid of essence. To the same effect Paul calls God to witness upon his soul (II Cor 1:23), which could not be brought to trial before God if incapable of suffering punishment. This is still more clearly expressed by our Saviour, when he bids us fear him who, after he has killed the body, is able also to cast into hell fire (Matt 10:28; Luke 12:5). Again when the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews distinguishes the fathers of our flesh from God, who alone is the Father of our spirits (Heb. 12:9), he could not have asserted the essence of the soul in clearer terms. Moreover, did not the soul, when freed from the fetters of the body, continue to exist, our Saviour would not have represented the soul of Lazarus as enjoying blessedness in Abraham s bosom, while, on the contrary, that of Dives was suffering dreadful torments (Luke 16:22-23). Paul assures us of the same thing when he says, that so long as we are present in the body, we are absent from the Lord (II Cor. 5:6,8). Not to dwell on a matter as to which there is little obscurity, I will only add, that Luke mentions among the errors of the Sadducees that they believed neither angel nor spirit (Acts 23:8).

A strong proof of this point may be gathered from its being said, that man was created in the image of God (Gen 1:27). For though the divine glory is displayed in man's outward appearance, it cannot be doubted that the proper seat of the image is in the soul. I deny not, indeed, that external shape, in so far as it distinguishes and separates us from the lower animals, brings us nearer to God; nor will I vehemently oppose any who may choose to include under the image of God that

Only let it be understood, that the image of God which is beheld or made conspicuous by these external marks, is spiritual. For Osiander, (whose writings exhibit a perverse ingenuity in futile devices,) extending the image of God indiscriminately as well to the body as to the soul, confounds heaven with earth. He says, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, placed their image in man, because, even though Adam had stood entire, Christ would still have become man. Thus, according to him, the body which was destined for Christ was a model and type of that corporeal figure which was then formed. But where does he find that Christ is an image of the Spirit? I admit, indeed, that in the person of the Mediator, the glory of the whole Godhead is displayed: but how can the eternal Word, who in order precedes the Spirit, be called his image? In short, the distinction between the Son and the Spirit is destroyed when the former is represented as the image of the latter. Moreover, I should like to know in what respect Christ in the flesh in which he was clothed resembles the Ho]y Spirit, and by what marks, or lineaments, the likeness is expressed. And since the expression, "Let us make man in our own image," (Gen 1:26) is used in the person of the Son also, it follows that he is the image of himself - a thing utterly absurd. Add that, according to the figment of Osiander, Adam was formed after the model or type of the man Christ. Hence Christ, in as much as he was to be clothed with flesh, was the idea according to which Adam was formed, whereas the Scriptures teach very differently, viz., that he was formed in the image of God. There is more plausibility in the imagination of those who interpret that Adam was created in the image of God, because it was conformable to Christ, who is the only image of God; but not even for this is there any solid foundation.

The "image" and "likeness" has given rise to no small discussion; interpreters searching without cause for a difference between the two terms, since "likeness" is merely added by way of exposition. First, we know that repetitions are common in Hebrew, which often gives two words for one thing; And, secondly, there is no ambiguity in the thing itself, man being called the image of God because of his likeness to God. Hence there is an obvious absurdity in those who indulge in philosophical speculation as to these names, placing the "Zelem", that is the image, in the substance of the soul, and the "Demuth", that is the likeness, in its qualities, and so forth. God having determined to create man in his own image, to remove the obscurity which was in this terms adds, by way of explanation, in his likeness, as if he had said, that he would make man, in whom he would, as it were, image himself by means of the marks of resemblance impressed upon him. Accordingly, Moses, shortly after repeating the account, puts down the image of God twice, and makes no mention of the likeness. Osiander frivolously objects that it is not a part of the man, or the soul with its faculties, which is called the image of God, but the whole Adam, who received his name from the dust out of which he was taken. I call the objection frivolous, as all sound readers will judge. For though the whole man is called mortal, the soul is not therefore liable to death, nor when he is called a rational animal is reason or intelligence thereby attributed to the body. Hence, although the soul is not the man, there is no absurdity in holding that he is called the image of God in respect of the soul; though I retain the principle which I lately laid down, that the image of God extends to everything in which the nature of man surpasses that of all other species of animals. Accordingly, by this term is denoted the integrity with which Adam was endued when his intellect was clear, his affections subordinated to reason, all his senses duly regulated, and when he truly ascribed all his excellence to the admirable gifts of his Maker. And though the primary seat of the divine image was in the mind and the heart, or in the soul and its powers, there was no part even of the body in which some rays of glory did not shine. It is certain that in every part of the world some lineaments of divine glory are beheld and hence we may infer, that when his image is placed in man, there is a kind of tacit antithesis, as it were, setting man apart from the crowd, and exalting him above all the other creatures. But it cannot be denied that the angels also were created in the likeness of God, since, as Christ declares, (Matt 22:30,) our highest perfection will consist in being like them. But it is not without good cause that Moses commends the favour of God towards us by giving us this peculiar title, the more especially that he was only comparing man with the visible creation.

4. The true nature of the image of God is to be derived from what Scripture says of its renewal through Christ

But our definition of the image seems not to be complete until it appears more clearly what the faculties are in which man excels, and in which he is to be regarded as a mirror of the divine glory. This, however, cannot be better known than from the remedy provided for the corruption of nature. It cannot be doubted that when Adam lost his first estate he became alienated from God. Wherefore, although we grant that the image of God was not utterly effaced and destroyed in him, it was, however, so corrupted, that any thing which remains is fearful deformity; and, therefore, our deliverance begins with that renovation which we obtain from Christ, who is, therefore, called the second Adam, because he restores us to true and substantial integrity. For although Paul, contrasting the quickening Spirit which believers receive from Christ, with the living soul which Adam was created, (1 Cor. 15:45,) commends the richer measure of grace bestowed in regeneration, he does not, however, contradict the statement, that the end of regeneration is to form us anew in the image of God. Accordingly, he elsewhere shows that the new man is renewed after the image of him that created him (Col. 3:10p.) To this corresponds another passage, "Put ye on the new man, who after God is created," (Eph. 4: 24.)

We must now see what particulars Paul comprehends under this renovation. In the first place, he mentions knowledge, and in the second, true righteousness and holiness. Hence we infer, that at the beginning the image of God was manifested by light of intellect, rectitude of heart, and the soundness of every part. For though I admit that the forms of expression are elliptical, this principle cannot be overthrown, viz., that the leading feature in the renovation of the divine image must also have held the highest place in its creation. To the same effect Paul elsewhere says, that beholding the glory of Christ with unveiled face, we are transformed into the same image (II Cor 3:18). We now see how Christ is the most perfect image of God, into which we are so renewed as to bear the image of God in knowledge, purity, righteousness, and true holiness.

This being established, the imagination of Osiander, as to bodily form, vanishes of its own accord. As to that passage of St Paul, (1 Cor. 11:7,) in which the man alone to the express exclusion of the woman, is called the image and glory of God, it is evident from the context, that it merely refers to civil order. I presume it has already been sufficiently proved, that the image comprehends everything which has any relation to the spiritual and eternal life. The same thing, in different terms, is declared by St John when he says, that the light which was from the beginning, in the eternal Word of God, was the light of man, (John 1:4.) His object being to extol the singular grace of God in making man excel the other animals, he at the same time shows how he was formed in the image of God, that he may separate him from the common herd, as possessing not ordinary animal existence, but one which combines with it the light of intelligence. Therefore, as the image of God constitutes the entire excellence of human nature, as it shone in Adam before his fall, but was afterwards vitiated and almost destroyed, nothing remaining but a ruin, confused, mutilated, and tainted with impurity, so it is now partly seen in the elect, in so far as they are regenerated by the Spirit. Its full lustre, however, will be displayed in heaven.

But in order to know the particular properties in which it consists, it will be proper to treat of the faculties of the soul. For there is no solidity in Augustine's speculation, that the soul is a mirror of the Trinity, inasmuch as it comprehends within itself, intellect, will, and memory. Nor is there probability in the opinion of those who place likeness to God in the dominion bestowed upon man, as if he only resembled God in this, that he is appointed lord and master of all things. The likeness must be within, in himself. It must be something which is not external to him but is properly the internal good of the soul.

But before I proceed further, it is necessary to advert to the dream of the Manichees, which Servetus has attempted in our day to revive. Because it is said that God breathed into man's nostrils the breath of life, (Gen. 2:7,) they thought that the soul was a transmission of the substance of God; as if some portion of the boundless divinity had passed into man. It cannot take long time to show how many gross and foul absurdities this devilish error carries in its train. For if the soul of man is a portion transmitted from the essence of God, the divine nature must not only be liable to passion and change, but also to ignorance, evil desires, infirmity, and all kinds of vice. There is nothing more inconstant than man, contrary movements agitating and distracting his soul. He is ever and anon deluded by want of skill, and overcome by the slightest temptations; while every one feels that the soul itself is a receptacle for all kinds of pollution. All these things must be attributed to the divine nature, if we hold that the soul is of the essence of God, or a secret influx of divinity. Who does not shudder at a thing so monstrous? Paul, indeed, quoting from Aratus, tells us we are his offspring, (Acts 17:28;) not in substance, however, but in quality, in as much as he has adorned us with divine endowments. Meanwhile, to lacerate the essence of the Creator, in order to assign a portion to each individual, is the height of madness. It must, therefore, be held as certain, that souls, notwithstanding of their having the divine image engraven on them, are created just as angels are. Creation, however, is not a transfusion of essence, but a commencement of it out of nothing. Nor, though the spirit is given by God, and when it quits the flesh again returns to him (cf. Eccl 12:7), does it follow that it is a portion withdrawn from his essence. Here, too, Osiander, carried away by his illusions entangled himself in an impious error, by denying that the image of God could be in man without his essential righteousness; as if God were unable, by the mighty power of his Spirit, to render us conformable to himself, unless Christ were substantially transfused into us. Under whatever colour some attempt to gloss these delusions, they can never so blind the eyes of intelligent readers as to prevent them from discerning in them a revival of Manicheism. But from the words of Paul, when treating of the renewal of the image, (II Cor. 3:18,) the inference is obvious, that man was conformable to God, not by an influx of substance, but by the grace and virtue of the Spirit. He says, that by beholding the glory of Christ, we are transformed into the same image as by the Spirit of the Lord; and certainly the Spirit does not work in us so as to make us of the same substance with God.

(Opinions of the philosophers on the soul criticized in view of the fall of Adam, 6-8)
6. The soul and its faculties

It were vain to seek a definition of the soul from philosophers, not one of whom, with the exception of Plato, distinctly maintained its immortality. Others of the school of Socrates, indeed, lean the same way, but still without teaching distinctly a doctrine of which they were not fully persuaded. Plato, however, advanced still further, and regarded the soul as an image of God. Others so attach its powers and faculties to the present life, that they leave nothing external to the body.

Moreover, having already shown from Scripture that the substance of the soul is incorporeal, we must now add, that though it is not properly enclosed by space, it however occupies the body as a kind of habitation, not only animating all its parts, and rendering the organs fit and useful for their actions, but also holding the first place in regulating the conduct. This it does not merely in regard to the offices of a terrestrial life, but also in regard to the service of God. This, though not clearly seen in our corrupt state, yet the impress of its remains is seen in our very vices. For whence have men such a thirst for glory but from a sense of shame? And whence this sense of shame but from a respect for what is honourable? Of this, the first principle and source is a consciousness that they were born to cultivate righteousness, - a consciousness akin to religion. But as man was undoubtedly created to meditate on the heavenly life, so it is certain that the knowledge of it was engraven on the soul. And, indeed, man would want the principal use of his understanding if he were unable to discern his felicity, the perfection of which consists in being united to God. Hence, the principal action of the soul is to aspire thither, and, accordingly, the more a man studies to approach to God, the more he proves himself to be endued with reason.

Though there is some plausibility in the opinion of those who maintain that man has more than one soul, namely, a sentient and a rational, yet as there is no soundness in their arguments, we must reject it, unless we would torment ourselves with things frivolous and useless. They tell us, (see chap. 5 sec. 4,) there is a great repugnance between organic movements and the rational part of the soul. As if reason also were not at variance with herself, and her counsels sometimes conflicting with each other like hostile armies. But since this disorder results from the depravation of nature, it is erroneous to infer that there are two souls, because the faculties do not accord so harmoniously as they ought.

But I leave it to philosophers to discourse more subtilely of these faculties. For the edification of the pious, a simple definition will be sufficient. I admit, indeed, that what they ingeniously teach on the subject is true, and not only pleasant, but also useful to be known; nor do I forbid any who are inclined to prosecute the study. First, I admit that there are five senses, which Plato (in Theaeteto) prefers calling organs, by which all objects are brought into a common sensorium, as into a kind of receptacle: Next comes the imagination, (phantasia,) which distinguishes between the objects brought into the sensorium: Next, reason, to which the general power of judgement belongs: And, lastly, intellect, which contemplates with fixed and quiet look whatever reason discursively revolves. In like manner, to intellect, fancy, and reason, the three cognitive faculties of the soul, correspond three appetite faculties viz., will, whose office is to choose whatever reason and intellect propound; irascibility, which seizes on what is set before it by reason and fancy; and concupiscence, which lays hold of the objects presented by sense and fancy.

Though these things are true, or at least plausible, still, as I fear they are more fitted to entangle, by their obscurity, than to assist us, I think it best to omit them. If any one chooses to distribute the powers of the mind in a different manner, calling one appetive, which, though devoid of reason, yet obeys reason, if directed from a different quarter, and another intellectual, as being by itself participant of reason, I have no great objection. Nor am I disposed to quarrel with the view, that there are three principles of action, viz., sense, intellect, and appetite.

But let us rather adopt a division adapted to all capacities - a thing which certainly is not to be obtained from philosophers. For they, when they would speak most plainly, divide the soul into appetite and intellect, but make both double. To the latter they sometimes give the name of contemplative, as being contented with mere knowledge and having no active powers (which circumstance makes Cicero designate it by the name of intellect, ingenii,) (De Fin. lib. 5.) At other times they give it the name of practical, because it variously moves the will by the apprehension of good or evil. Under this class is included the art of living well and justly. The former viz., appetite, they divide into will and concupiscence, calling it "boulesis", so whenever the appetite, which they call "horme", obeys the reason. But when appetite, casting off the yoke of reason, runs to intemperance, they call it "pathos". Thus they always presuppose in man a reason by which he is able to guide himself aright.

From this method of teaching we are forced somewhat to dissent. For philosophers, being unacquainted with the corruption of nature, which is the punishment of revolt, erroneously confound two states of man which are very different from each other. Let us therefore hold, for the purpose of the present work, that the soul consists of two parts, the intellect and the will, (Book 2 chap. 2 sec. 2, 12,) - the office of the intellect being to distinguish between objects, according as they seem deserving of being approved or disapproved; and the office of the will, to choose and follow what the intellect declares to be good, to reject and shun what it declares to be bad, (Plato, in Phaedro.) We dwell not on the subtlety of Aristotle, that the mind has no motion of itself; but that the moving power is choice, which he also terms the appetite intellect. Not to lose ourselves in superfluous questions, let it be enough to know that the intellect is to us, as it were, the guide and ruler of the soul; that the will always follows its beck, and waits for its decision, in matters of desire. For which reason Aristotle truly taught, that in the appetite there is a pursuit and rejection corresponding in some degree to affirmation and negation in the intellect, (Aristot. Ethic. lib. 6 sec. 2.) Moreover, it will be seen in another place, (Book 2 c. 2 see. 12-26,) how surely the intellect governs the will. Here we only wish to observe, that the soul does not possess any faculty which may not be duly referred to one or other of these members. And in this way we comprehend sense under intellect. Others distinguish thus: They say that sense inclines to pleasure in the same way as the intellect to good; that hence the appetite of sense becomes concupiscence and lust, while the affection of the intellect becomes will. For the term appetite, which they prefer, I use that of will, as being more common.

Therefore, God has provided the soul of man with intellect, by which he might discern good from evil, just from unjust, and might know what to follow or to shun, reason going before with her lamp; whence philosophers, in reference to her directing power, have called her "to hegemonikon". To this he has joined will, to which choice belongs. Man excelled in these noble endowments in his primitive condition, when reason, intelligence, prudence, and judgement, not only sufficed for the government of his earthly life, but also enabled him to rise up to God and eternal happiness. Thereafter choice was added to direct the appetites, and temper all the organic motions; the will being thus perfectly submissive to the authority of reason.

In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life. It were here unseasonable to introduce the question concerning the secret predestination of God, because we are not considering what might or might not happen, but what the nature of man truly was. Adam, therefore, might have stood if he chose, since it was only by his own will that he fell; but it was because his will was pliable in either directions and he had not received constancy to persevere, that he so easily fell. Still he had a free choice of good and evil; and not only so, but in the mind and will there was the highest rectitude, and all the organic parts were duly framed to obedience, until man corrupted its good properties, and destroyed himself.

Hence the great darkness of philosophers who have looked for a complete building in a ruin, and fit arrangement in disorder. The principle they set out with was, that man could not be a rational animal unless he had a free choice of good and evil. They also imagined that the distinction between virtue and vice was destroyed, if man did not of his own counsel arrange his life. So far well, had there been no change in man. This being unknown to them, it is not surprising that they throw every thing into confusion. But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labour under manifold delusion, making a heterogeneous mixture of inspired doctrine and philosophical opinions, and so erring as to both. But it will be better to leave these things to their own place, (see Book 2 chap. 2) At present it is necessary only to remember, that man, at his first creation, was very different from all his posterity; who, deriving their origin from him after he was corrupted, received a hereditary taint. At first every part of the soul was formed to rectitude. There was soundness of mind and freedom of will to choose the good. If any one objects that it was placed, as it were, in a slippery position, because its power was weak, I answer, that the degree conferred was sufficient to take away every excuse. For surely the Deity could not be tied down to this condition, - to make man such, that he either could not or would not sin. Such a nature might have been more excellent; but to expostulate with God as if he had been bound to confer this nature on man, is more than unjust, seeing he had full right to determine how much or how little He would give. Why He did not sustain him by the virtue of perseverance is hidden in his counsel; it is ours to keep within the bounds of soberness. Man had received the power, if he had the will, but he had not the will which would have given the power; for this will would have been followed by perseverance. Still, after he had received so much, there is no excuse for his having spontaneously brought death upon himself. No necessity was laid upon God to give him more than that intermediate and even transient will, that out of man's fall he might extract materials for his own glory.

About: The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 15 (The Nature of Man)

Let's begin by first defining, from the Bible, what is a soul. You will note that it consist of two things: dust and breath of life. Read,
Genesis 2
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
If any of those two ingredients is lacking, the soul ceases to exist. I will use a very basic example. If you make a cake, you need flour, milk, sugar,etc. If you were to someway extract the flour from the cake it would no longer be a cake. Nothing more nothing less.
The first lie that was ever told was told by Satan, the Father of the lie..
John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
We find that the first lie that was ever told is in regards to death. It is found in
Genesis 3
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 5
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Here we see that Satan deceived Eve into believing that she would never die. My friend, that same lie exist today. We see in Leviticus that a soul referrs to a living person. Read
Leviticus 6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against God , and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
The Bible also teaches that a soul can in fact die.
Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Note in Joshua that "souls..destroying[them]... not any left to breath...". When the breath of life leaves the body, the soul dies or ceases to exist. This is what the Bible teaches.
Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that [were] therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying [them]: there was not any left to breathe : and he burnt Hazor with fire.

Job speaking of his death when his breath(spirit), not his soul, returns to God. What is left is the other ingredient - dust.
Job 34
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust
In Ecclesiastes, King Solomon whom God blessed with tremendous wisdom, says
Ecclesiastes 3
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecclesiastes 12
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If it were true that the soul goes to heaven at death, then you would expect these living, conscious souls to be praising God, wouldn't you? Well the King David, who was the "apple of God's eye" says:
Psalm 115
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
So we see that there is nothing but silence. Isaiah says ther is no celebration or hope of anything after you die.
Isaiah 38
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Surely if a soul was still living after death, you would expect that it could see or be aware of whats going on. In Kings we read just the opposite.
2 Kings 22
20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
King David says very plainly that at death one "thoughts perish".
Psalm 146
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Does that sound like anything living to you? King Solomon elaborates on this even more.
Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalm 88
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Psalm 6
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Going to the New Testament, we see that Luke says that King David, who had died more than one thousand years earlier is still buried and hasn't ascended to heaven.
Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
John says that it is the spirit (referring to the breath) that quickeneth (gives life). We saw that when God breathed into Adams nostrils and he became a "living soul".
John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Ezekiel 37
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Psalm 104
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalm 33:9
For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
The prophet Ezekiel speaking of the second coming of Christ says very plainly when the dead will come back to life what will transpire.
Ezekiel 37
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Job knew that when he would die that he would enter a deep sleep and would not be awaken until after God's wrath and then his change (immortality) would come.
Job 14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Christ referred to death as sleep (no consciousness, no awareness of anything). Furthermore, we read in John that Martha did not expect that her dead brother, Lazarus, would go anywhere until the resurrection which will take place at the second coming of Christ.
John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Stephen, at his death, mentions for the Lord to receive his spirit (breath) Note that he didn't say receive my soul.
Acts 7
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Christ says in reference to his second coming that the dead will hear his voice and live. Not before.
John 5
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Psalm 102
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Christ was the first to resurrect from the dead and when he returns his people will be awoken from their sleep and at that moment receive immortality, not before.
1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 24
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
As you can see that the Bible is very clear on the state of the dead. The Bible doesn't teach that the dead continue to exist in the form a soul after death. However, man continues to teach that same doctrine given to Eve that she would not die but would live for ever. Many use the parable about "The Rich Man and Lazarus" to support their doctrine concerning the state of the dead in heaven and hell. If you Post a request, I will send you a Biblical study on that topic. God Bless You.

About: The Institutes Book 1, chap 15 (The Nature of Man)

The word "soul" (psuche) has various definitions in Strong's Concordance: Breath, life, living being,etc.
Therefore, if one relys solely on definitions from a Concordance or dictionary to determine exactly what a passage in scripture is saying, then there is a possibility of completely missing the point. For example, the Bible, in several places uses a figure of speech which we call personification. Specifically in
Genesis 4:9,10 "And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."
Of course, we know that blood can not speak. The LORD here is using a figure of speech to indicate that he knows that Cain is dead. Another example is
Habakkuk 2:11 "For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it."
Is it correct to say that stones and timber can cry out and speak? Of course not. You can research the Hebrew Concordance all day and never get the answer based on definitions. These verses and several others in Scripture along with the one you mentioned, Revelation 6:9-10, are examples showing that you can not take everything in the Bible literally. That includes the parables in the Gospels and the prophecies in the Old and New Testament. There is another passage in my King James version which is in error. Unless one becomes aware of it, he can very easily be misled, which is almost what happened to me. The verse is Jude 1:14 "And Enoch.... saying....the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." That's not what the Book of Enoch 1:9 says. It says ten thousands of his "holy ones." http://exodus2006.com/5enoch.htm Matthew 25:31 says "holy angels". Mark 8:38 says the same. So does 2 Thessalonians 1:7 . After doing research, God lead me to the truth. It takes much study and guidance from God if you're to understand what the Bible is saying. Now let's read again what John sees occurring during the "fifth seal".
Revelation 6: 9 - 11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried out with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
There is plenty evidence, which we will note shortly, to show that these verses are not to be taken literally. The representation is symbolical. First, the ones who were slain were the ones mentioned during the previous "fourth seal".
Revelation 6:8 "...power was given....to kill with the sword...hunger..".
Anyone who has studied Bible prophecy is well aware that each of these seals encompasses periods of up to several hundred years. For example, the persecutions represented under the 4th seal includes the period of the Crusades, Holy Inquisitions, St. Batholomew massacre, until the late 18th century. Over 150 million Bible following Christians from God's true church died due to religious persecution. I could speak about this for days. If you want more on this subject, I'll send you books of information, but let's get back to the subject. If these souls who had been slain are in heaven under an alter, their persecutors are most certainly dead by the time of the 5th seal. So why would the dead martyrs be asking for vengance on someone who is dead and whom they can see burning in the fires of hell? What greater vengeance could God possibly take? It doesn't logically make sense that this entire representation is to be taken literally in heaven. Also the only altar mentioned in the heavenly sanctuary is the altar of incense. Never does the scripture say that dead bodies were to be placed near that altar during any part of the sanctuary service. The altar of Incense was never used in this way. The only altar in the earthly sanctuary service that had dead animal sacrifices next to it was the sacrificial altar. And there are certainly no sacrifices taking place in heaven.Thus there is no reason to believe that this vision takes place in heaven but on earth. Do you believe that a soul in heaven or hell has blood or flesh? These are items which the immaterial soul, as popularly understood, is not supposed to possess. This is another one of many reasons why these victims were beheaded on the earthly altars of their persecutors during the period of the 4th seal. Another question, do you think that these martyrs, if they are in heaven, would be worried about if God is going to take vengeance on their persecutors? I would expect them to be jumping for joy and glad to see that they were counted worthy to have made it through the pearly gates of heaven. If I were in their shoes at this time, vengeance would be the last thing on my mind. I'de probably be glad that I had been found to be a loyal servant and died in the faith and that my works had followed me.
Revelation 14: 12,13
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice form heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from hence forth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. "For that reason John sees these martyrs in vision being clothed in white because white robes or garments are always symbolical of God's commandments. And these martyrs, whose works "for the word of God and for the testimony which they held" were worthy in his vision to receive the white garments.
In reference to souls being "dead". I agree one hundred per cent with that. It's Biblical. Thanks for bringing it up again.
Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
The Bible is very clear on this. As you can read, it says that a soul can die. Death occurrs when the Breath of Life separates from the dust of the earth from which we are made of. At this point, life, consciousness, knowledge, etc. ceases to exist and as my study shows from scripture, you enter into a "sleep" not to be awoken until the second coming which takes place after the 7 last plagues of Rev.16. Job says very plainly that he doesn't expect to become immortal until after the wrath. Meanwhile, he expects to be in a deep sleep.
Job 14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
One could play a game of semantics with this all day long, however, that will not change what the MOST HOLY BIBLE teaches. I have never seen anyone who can show me any passage from the Bible saying that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death. It does not exist. Many try to use the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man to substantiate their reasoning for a soul going to heaven or hell but again they miss the whole point of the parable. If you want a plethora of Biblical information on this, advise me on this same thread. I'll gladly share this with you. May God Bless You in your studies of his Holy Word.

About: The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 15 (The Nature of Man)

The death of a believer cannot separate him from the Lord under any circumstances.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any creature shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

Death for the believer means being face to face with the Lord.

Here are some helpful verses.

2Cor 5:8 , Rom 8:1, 1Pet 1:4-5, Heb 9:21, Rev 21:4, 1st Thes 4:13,18, 1Cor 15:54-57, Ps 116:15, Ps 23:4, Phil 1:20-21

Let's look at the first verse that you bring up.

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I don't know what point you're trying to make by bringing this verse up. Absent from the body simply means not being of a carnal nature but becoming of a spiritual nature. In this particular verse he doesn't mention when this occurrs.

Next you mention:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In this verse, Paul is simply saying that one who gives up the carnal desires of this world and does the will of the Holy Spirit by his good works, then will he be acceptable in Christ. As the Scripture says, "By their fruits you shall know them".

Romans 8:38,39 does not say that death will "permanently" separate us from God nor does it say that a soul goes to heaven or hell or purgatory. We will live again, conquer death, resurrect from the grave, receive immortality, and become incorruptible only and only at the second coming of Christ. It is written in
1 Corinthians 15:20,23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming". This verse clearly doesn't teach that the dead go to heaven or hell before Christ's coming. It says exactly the opposite.
It is very clear that the dead will rise first at Christ's coming, not 1 second before. Read
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain"until the coming of the Lord" will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the "dead in Christ will rise first". Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
We see in Ezekiel that the army of saints are those who come out of the graves, not heaven, at Christ's 2nd coming when he comes with his army of angels from heaven. Ezekiel 37:10 "So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army." Verse 12 "open your graves", referring to the same as

1Cor.15:42-56 So also is the "resurrection of the dead". It is sown in corruption; it is "raised in incorruption":
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is "raised a spiritual body". There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a "quickening spirit".
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and "afterward that which is spiritual".
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly".
50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed",
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
53 For this corruptible must put on "incorruption", and this mortal must put on "immortality".
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't think there is any need for me to explain what these verses are saying. They're self explanatory. Although the verses you provided are Biblical, you haven't presented a single verse that says that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death or a verse that says that there is an immortal soul or a verse that says the dead will go to heaven before his second coming. Please provide me with verses that say these things very explicitly.

.
In reference to 2Corinthians 5:8, Paul doesn't say when we'll be present when the Lord. It would a distortion to say that we'll be with God the exact moment that one dies. To the contrary, Paul says just the opposite in

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
And of course, when he speaks of "absent from the body" he is referring to what he says in 1 Corinthians 15:44-56 It is sown a natural body; it is "raised a spiritual body". There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a "quickening spirit".
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and "afterward that which is spiritual".
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly".
50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed",
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
53 For this corruptible must put on "incorruption", and this mortal must put on "immortality".
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't think there is any need for me to explain what these verses are saying. They're self explanatory. Although the verses you provided are Biblical, you haven't presented a single verse that says that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death or a verse that says that there is an immortal soul or a verse that says the dead will go to heaven before his second coming. Please provide me with verses that say these things very explicitly.

In reference to
1Peter 1:4,5 To an inheritance "incorruptible", and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed "in the last time".

Excellent passage where we see Peter agreeing with what Paul says in Corinthians. He says "inheritance incorruptible" and in verse 5 "revealed in the last time." Paul says at the "last trump" "raised incorruptible", let's read
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the "last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be "raised incorruptible", and we shall be "changed". For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on "immortality". The Bible plainly doesn't contradict itself. You'll find it says the same thing from beginning to end. Man, on the other hand, tries to change it to satisfy his own doctrines. The Bible clearly says for us to beware of false doctrines. In reference to

Hebrews 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. You left out some of the most important verses. One thing we must always learn to do when we study the MOST HOLY BIBLE, is to read the context of the topic we're studying. Now let's look at

Hebrews 9:19-22 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

We see here Moses, during the time of the earthly tabernacle, not heavenly. I don't really understand your point for bringing this up.

Let's move on to the next verses
Revelation 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This is another of my favorite verses. You will note that in verse 1 he is referring to the new heaven and the new earth. Obviously this scene takes place after Christ's 2nd coming and we will be with him in the "heavenly tabernacle", the true tabernacle not made by human hands as the one he's referring to in Hebrews 9:21 which we've just went over. Let's read about this heavenly tabernacle that Paul speaks of in

Hebrews 9:11 But "Christ being come an high priest" of good things to come, by a greater and more "perfect tabernacle, not made with hands", that is to say, not of this building;
and 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the "true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man".

As we see, Christ is serving this moment as our "high priest" in the true heavenly sanctuary. If you wish I can send you a plethora of Biblical passages just on this topic, however, let's not get sidetracked and move on for now. I love the next verse you bring up:

Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

. It's a beautiful verse. I would like, at this moment, to add a couple of verses in regards to this Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the "blood of the saints", and with the "blood of the martyrs of Jesus": and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Of course the woman here is the apostate church (Mother Babylon, the Mother of Harlots) of Revelation 17 who drinks out of a golden cup.
Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the "blood of saints and prophets", and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Yes, the Lord has great love for those martys who died before and during the so called "holy" Inquisition and The Saint Bartholomew Massacre, to only mention a couple. http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0424.htm
http://www.reformation.org/bart.html
And also those who follow the teachings of The HOLY BIBLE will be persecuted again in the future by the agents of Satan. We read that in verse 11 of

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that "should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled".

You bring up Psalms 23:4 Although it's a beautiful and well known verse, I don't understand the point that you are trying to make? Please clarify?

In Philippians 1:20-21 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Paul speaks of magnifying God whether he be living or dead and "to be" with Christ. Does he say when he expects to be with Christ? The answer is no he doesn't. If he would have said that he expects to be with Christ at the moment of his death, then he would be contradicting himself in

1Corinthians 15:42-56 So also is the "resurrection of the dead". It is sown in corruption; it is "raised in incorruption":
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is "raised a spiritual body". There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a "quickening spirit".
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and "afterward that which is spiritual".
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly".
50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed",
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
53 For this corruptible must put on "incorruption", and this mortal must put on "immortality".
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

It doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't think there is any need for me to explain what these verses are saying. They're self explanatory. Although the verses you provided are Biblical, you haven't presented a single verse that says that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death or a verse that says that there is an immortal soul or a verse that says the dead will go to heaven before his second coming. Please provide me with verses that say these things very explicitly. I have now given you probably more than 70 verses to show that there is no such thing as an "immortal soul" which goes to heaven at death. God Bless You.

The proof is in the pudding.

First of, this isn’t a recipe’ for pudding, this is the integredy of scripture that you questioned in your first post to me. So let us take a look at your contentions from that post:it.

Now let's read again what John sees occurring during the "fifth seal". Revelation 6: 9 - 11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried out with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. There is plenty evidence, which we will note shortly, to show that these verses are not to be taken literally. The representation is symbolical. First, the ones who were slain were the ones mentioned during the previous "fourth seal".
Revelation 6:8 "...power was given....to kill with the sword...hunger..".

Actually, if you are going to do this, you probably should have started with the 4th seal, so let’s try again, shall we?

7) When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
8) I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9)When the lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long O Lord holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11) And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they weere told that they should rest for a little while longer until the number of their fellow servants and their brethern who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Revelation 6:7-11 NASB

i find your next statement to be particularly interesting:

Anyone who has studied Bible prophecy is well aware that each of these seals encompasses periods of up to several hundred years.

On the contrary, I can point out students and scholars of biblical prophecy who would assert that the prophecies in Revelation were completed approximately 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Looking at all of the evidence, I can make a case for the events in question as happening in the 14th Century, being a student of that period in European History. There are yet others who maintain that this is a time yet to come. On what basis should I accept your interpretation of the time frame?

For example, the persecutions represented under the 4th seal includes the period of the Crusades, Holy Inquisitions, St. Batholomew massacre, until the late 18th century. Over 150 million Bible following Christians from God's true church died due to religious persecution.

Only until the 18th Century? How about the Chruch in China destroyed by the Maoists in the late 1940’s - early 1950’s? How about the genocide against Christians presently going on in East Timor and Rahwanda? How about the present persecution of Christians in Nigeria, and the Middle East?

I could speak about this for days. If you want more on this subject, I'll send you books of information, but let's get back to the subject.

Um, no thank you, I have probably read similar material over the decades, some of it interesting, some of it compelling, some of it rediculous, some of it just plain heretical. While I can’t determine the character of whatever material you possess, I can tell you that "it ain’t bible!", and it is not profitable when trying to determine what any particular passage actually says. It introduces an a-priori bias into exegesis, and

If these souls who had been slain are in heaven under an alter, their persecutors are most certainly dead by the time of the 5th seal. So why would the dead martyrs be asking for vengance on someone who is dead and whom they can see burning in the fires of hell? What greater vengeance could God possibly take? It doesn't logically make sense that this entire representation is to be taken literally in heaven.

Since when is Logic, or what appears to be logic, the criteria used to determine what actually happened? The rebellion of Lucifer and 1/3 of the host of Heaven was not logical, neither was the fall of man in the garden, unless one wishes to rationalise that away by one criteria or another. Note that you’re also assuming, A-PRIORI that you have a correct interpretation of the passage, and arguing against that passage from the assumption. Specifically what indication do you have from the text alone that the persecuters are dead by the time of the fifth seal, aside from the UNSUBSTANTIATED presupposition that the time period is over several centuries?

Also the only altar mentioned in the heavenly sanctuary is the altar of incense. Never does the scripture say that dead bodies were to be placed near that altar during any part of the sanctuary service. The altar of Incense was never used in this way.

Relevant only if dead bodies are what ‘soul’ refers to. Again, this is a matter of reading an assumption into the text rather than reading the text. Again, who said that this is the altar of Incense? It is simply described as an Altar, without specific reference.

The only altar in the earthly sanctuary service that had dead animal sacrifices next to it was the sacrificial altar. And there are certainly no sacrifices taking place in heaven.Thus there is no reason to believe that this vision takes place in heaven but on earth.

The only problem that I see with this evaluation is that it directly contradicts the text, specifically, the first two verses of Chapter four. Aside from that, the Christian Church did not participate in the Jewish Temple system in Gentile congregations. The Temple was in Jerusalem. I see no evidence from this text that the ones who are calling out during the fifth seal events are the same ones who die by sword, famine, and pestilence in the events of the fourth seal. Perhaps some of them are, but you cannot account for the entire number that way. The passage is silent on the subject. Regretabbly I must conclude that the interpretation you espouse above has been read into the text from a source besides the text.

Something else is pretty clear however:

CONTEXT:
This is a narrative. John is describing what he saw, and what he heard. Evidence from the text follows:

9) I, John your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11) saying, "write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches:...

Revelation 1:9-11a NASB

Consider also:

19) "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

Revelation 1:19 NASB, emphasis by Calvinist_Dark_Lord

and:

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

Revelation 4:1 NASB emphasis by Calvinist_Dark_Lord

This section is a narrative, we can trust that John saw what he saw, and heard what he heard.

Now to your most recent:

I've provided you with over 50 Biblical verses to substantiate my point of view. How many have you provided?i’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that this was a matter of "popular vote." How many times does God have to say something for it to be true? ~Trick question~ He doesn’t have to say it at all, it’s either true or it’s not.

You show me a passage that says that a "soul is immortal" and goes to heaven or hell at the moment of death and I'll definitely consider it. i already presented one to you, and you’ve attempted to rationalise it away, by attempting to prove that the verse is not literal. Why should I believe that you would not attempt to do so with others?

Also, I've provided you with several reasons supporting my point of view on Rev. 6 and how many have you provided?

i’m still trying to determine what your point of view is on the immortality of the soul, what you mean by soul, and why you think it would be otherwise. Calvin is explicit in Institutes, all you’ve done is attempt to rebut based on who knows what. Why don’t you present a detailed statement of what you believe on this matter, and stop attempting to spam us with verses that may or may not in their context support your view, nobody has time to read through all of that and provide a response. It would slow the forum down far too much, and most of us have lives to live away from the monitor, as you probably do. The question remains: Are you an anniallationist, Nhilist, or Atheist? Just be out front with us is all that we ask.

However, it seems, noting from your response, that the Biblical truth offends you.

No, little offends me, what disturbs me is the idea that somebody comes into these discussion presuming to have some sort of "truth" that the True Church has somehow missed for two Millenia. We deal with all kinds of "Trolls" (the term used) on this forum, pretending to be something that they are not, usually to ridicule, but often to promote an agenda that the church somehow missed, or got wrong. You’ll meet some of them soon enough.

Is name calling the only defense you can provide? It's very obvious that it's gotten too hot for you in the kitchen. Your vocabulary (Labels of course man-made) is not impressive either. I'll pray for you "dark" lord. If you can't supply Biblical passages (hopefully you can find more than one or two),to support your position that there exist an "immortal soul", then please don't respond.

You think this is name calling! Wait until you’ve been around a while. Actually it was a question, what are you? I am not at all interested in your evaluation of my tag line, I don’t know you, and your opinion, moral or otherwise means nothing to me. That dog won’t hunt. Keep in mind though, Dark Lord is another poster, it would not do to confuse him with me, he probably would not appreciate it. If you need a quick way to avoid that typing, just use CDL, people on this forum will know who you refer to.

So why don’t you just be up front, and tell us just what you believe, and provide evidence for it that doesn’t take up pages and pages to respond to (you can post more than one time to a comment you know). Do that and we can talk, do it not and I will not waste my time.

i can assure you that I don’t need you or anyone else to build a "reputation" was I interested in doing so, so don’t flatter yourself.

The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 15 (The Nature of Man)
Might as well get further light and knowledge from Joseph Smith's White Salamander while we are at it. The Mormons use all sorts of KJV verses out of context and provide a long list of verses to obscure the basic flaws in their incredibly poor doctrine. You are on the same path as Mr Hinckley and his flock. Or the JW's for that matter. Nice try cult boy.

No thanks, I've read many books on various religious themes and they're all the same, promoting false man-made religions. I know the Mormon doctrines and they're all following Mother Babylon the mother of Harlots being full of traditional beliefs and doctrines of devils that they keep passing down through the years, but never teach the fundamental truths of the Bible. Each one picks a few verses here and there from the Bible and twist it around to fit their own little agenda, and then concoct a whole new vocabulary with large words to make it sound like they know something that no one else knows and on and on and on. Then when someone presents to them a plethora of verses directly from the Bible, that all say the same thing, with absolutely no contradictions, that's very easy to understand with no question about it's interpretation, all of a sudden, if it goes against their dogma which they've accepted for years as truth, they have very little recourse but to revert to name calling like "cult boy". No my friend, I don't have a doctrine. God has the doctrine. I just teach it and try to follow the commandments and precepts that he sets forth directly from his Book, The Most Holy Bible. I've presented 50 to 70 Biblical verses that all say basically death is a sleep and no one becomes immortal at death until the 2nd coming. The Bible does not teach anything about a state of consciousness, knowledge, etc. after one dies. Not until the 2nd coming. You may not like it but that's what it says. Your getting upset, denying it, or name calling will not change the WORD of Almighty God. You haven't presented a single verse to refute anything I've quoted from the Bible, so obviously you can't find any verses. And most likely you know very little about the Bible. And don't take this as a put down, because at one time I was very ignorant about the Word of God. It wasn't till someone made me aware that maybe I had been misled. It is a confirmation to me that I am speaking the Word of God when one can't refute it using the Bible. How can you refute the Truth with the Truth? It's impossible. Here are some more verses.

Job 3:11-18 "Why did I not "die" at birth? Why did I not perish when I came from the womb? Why did the knees receive me? Or why the breasts, that I should nurse? For now I would have lain still and been quiet, I would have been "asleep"; then I would have been at "rest" With kings and counselors of the earth, who built ruins for themselves, Or with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver; Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child, like infants who never saw light? There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at" rest". There the prisoners "rest" together; they do not hear the voice of the oppressor. The small and great are there, and the servant is free from his master.

We see John in vision of Revelation speaking of the dead martyrs during the 4th seal (Inquisition, St. Barthowlomew Massacre, Martin Luther, Waldenses, etc.) as being in a state of "rest" waiting until the horrible persecutions, of their brother Christians, which is to return in the last days.

Revelation 6:10,11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them: and it was said unto them, that they should "rest" yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fullfilled.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the "dead" which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may "rest" from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The angel who revealed end-time events to Daniel (Dan. 10-12) confirms the scriptural understanding of the status of the dead with his words to him regarding his fate.

Daniel 12:13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall "rest", and "will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
Daniel is told by the angel that he will "rest in death until the time of the end", and then he will arise in the resurrection to claim his inheritance. This awakening from the sleep of death at the resurrection is spoken of many times in the Bible.
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who "sleep" in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Isaiah 26:19 "Your dead shall live"; together with my dead body "they shall arise". "Awake" and sing, "you who dwell in dust"; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and "the earth shall cast out the dead."
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for "the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth", those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Ephesians 5:13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead", and Christ will give you light."
As we have seen over and over, the Bible speaks of death as a condition of unconsciousness similar to sleep. Many quote the apostle Paul's writings (Phi. 1:20-24; II Cor. 5:1-9) to supposedly disprove "soul sleep." However, it is from Paul that we receive the most emphatic declaration of the resurrection from the dead as the "only" hope for those who have died.

Let's examine Paul's comments about the resurrection from the 15th chapter of I Corinthians in detail:
I Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been "raised" [egegertai] from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Here Paul begins to dispute a teaching brought to Corinth that denied the bodily resurrection of the dead. This heresy likely took root among the Corinthian church due to the strong cultural influence exerted by the dualistic Greek view of human nature. The Greek view that the body and soul are separate, and that the soul lives on after the body dies, has influenced Christian doctrine since the first century. This view apparently had caused some Corinthian believers to falsely conclude that a resurrection from the dead was not necessary, since the souls of departed believers were already with Christ in heaven.
However, Paul, coming from a Pharisaic Jewish background (Acts 23:6; 26:5; Phi. 3:5), viewed the afterlife in a completely different way. The Dictionary of Paul and His Letters (DPHL) has this to say about Paul's beliefs regarding the resurrection:
Paul's teaching about the bodily resurrection arises out of a Jewish anthropology in which the "soul" (Heb nephesh, Gk psyche) is the animating principle of human life. In mainstream Jewish thought human beings do not have souls, they are souls. . . . Given this background it is perfectly understandable how in Romans 8:23 Paul describes the effects of the resurrection in terms of the ultimate "redemption of our bodies" . . . (p. 810)
As a side note, the Greek word egegertai ("raised") found in verse 12 is a form of the Greek verb egeiro. The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament states: "The basic meaning of egeiro is (trans.) to wake from sleep . . . or (intrans.) awaken, rise . . . (p. 372, vol. 1). Literally, Paul's comment could be translated: "He has been awakened from the dead . . ."
I Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not "risen" [egegertai]. 14 And if Christ is not "risen" [egegertai], then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He "raised up" [egeiren] Christ, whom He did not "raise up" [egeiren] -- if in fact the dead do not "rise "[egeirontai].
Paul attacks the very heart of this false doctrine in verse 13. He firmly links the future resurrection of the dead with the past resurrection of Christ. If the dead aren't going to be awakened from their sleep at the resurrection, then Paul says that neither has Christ been awakened from death. If Christ has not been awakened from death, then their hope is in vain. Additionally, Paul and the other apostles have been spreading a false message!
I Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead do not "rise" [egeirontai], then Christ is not "risen" [egegertai]. 17 And if Christ is not "risen" [egegertai], your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
For emphasis, Paul again states in verse 16 that if the dead are not going to wake up from the sleep of death in the future, then Christ has not already been awakened. If this is the case, Paul tells them that their faith is useless and there has been no forgiveness for their sins.
I Corinthians15:18 Then also those who have "fallen asleep" in Christ have "perished". 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
Now Paul takes his case a step further. If there is no resurrection, then those believers who have died while believing in Christ have "ceased to exist"! If there is no resurrection, then believers only have hope in Christ during their mortal life on this earth.
There is no ambiguity in Paul's argument. He clearly states that the "only" hope for life after death is the resurrection. Paul's position here totally negates the Hellenistic belief that the disembodied souls of the dead saints are in heaven with Christ.
I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is "risen" [egegertai] from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have "fallen asleep". 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
After laying out the ultimate consequences the rejection of the resurrection had on their theology, Paul goes on to state the facts to the Corinthians. Yeshua had indeed been awakened from the sleep of the dead. When God roused him from the sleep of death to glorious eternal life, Christ became the firstfruits of all those who will be awakened from death later on. Since death originally entered the human race because of Adam's sin, the resurrection of the dead to immortality came by way of a man's perfect obedience. But there is to be an order to the resurrection to immortality: Yeshua the Messiah first, then those messianic believers at the coming of Christ. More detail than this we are not given, but Paul does tell us the end result; Christ will reign until the last enemy, death, is destroyed.
Paul sums up his dissertation on death and the resurrection toward the end of chapter 15:
I Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: "We shall not all sleep", but we shall all be changed -- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and "the dead will be raised incorruptible", and "we shall be changed". 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Paul begins here with a statement that is often overlooked; flesh and blood mortals cannot INHERIT the Kingdom of God. As numerous other Scriptures show, however, they will be in the Kingdom of God. He goes on to say that not all believers will die before Messiah Yeshua returns. But when he returns, all believers will be changed instantly at the sounding of the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15-18). At the sounding of this trumpet, the dead saints will awake from their sleep in new, spiritual bodies, and the bodies of those believers then living will be changed to spirit. When this happens, "death is swallowed up in victory!"
Paul spoke of this same event in his first letter to the Thessalonians:
I Thessalonians 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about "those who are asleep", so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
In verse 13 he defines for the church at Thessalonica why he is writing; to give them comfort and hope regarding the fate of those believers who had died ("fallen asleep").
I Thessalonians 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have "fallen asleep" in him.
Verse 14 is an affirmation of faith in the resurrection. Paul says that "just as" we believe God raised Yeshua from the dead, so "also" we believe that God will resurrect those who died believing in Christ at his return.
There are those who say this verse teaches that Jesus will bring the conscious souls of the dead believers with him from heaven to be reunited with their resurrected bodies at his coming. However, this interpretation of verse 14 totally misses the point of what Paul is saying. If that understanding of the state of the dead was to be the Thessalonians' consolation and hope, Paul would have had no need to address the resurrection at all. He simply could have stated that the souls of the dead believers were at that time alive and with Christ in heaven. What more consolation would they have needed regarding the fate of their dead brothers and sisters?
But that is not at all the message Paul presents. The hope for the dead, as Paul presents it to the Thessalonians, is the resurrection of Christ. Just as he told the Corinthians, Paul emphasizes that Yeshua's resurrection is the guarantee of the future resurrection of the "sleeping" saints, who will awake at the time of his return.
I Thessalonians 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have "fallen asleep". 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and "the dead in Christ will rise first". 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Paul's consolation to the Thessalonians is the expectation that they will be reunited with their sleeping brethren at the resurrection of the dead. This resurrection will occur when Yeshua comes down from heaven as the last trumpet is blown. The dead will rise from their graves first, and together with them those believers who remain alive will be changed into spirit and will ascend to meet Yeshua in the air (Matt. 24:31). Paul is telling the Thessalonians to have hope in the "resurrection", not to have hope in being a disembodied, conscious spirit in heaven.
In I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4, Paul speaks specifically about the resurrection to immortality. But as we mentioned earlier, the Bible also shows a resurrection to mortal life. The prophet Ezekiel speaks of this resurrection, which will be like the physical resurrections of the widow's son from Zarephath (1 Kings 17:17-23); the Shunammite's son (II Kings 4:17-37); the widow's son from Nain (Luke 7:11-16); the daughter of Jairus (Matt. 9:18-25; Mark 5:22-42; Luke 8:41-55); Lazarus (John 11:1-45); the saints raised in Jerusalem when Yeshua died on the cross (Matt. 27:50-53); Tabitha (Acts 9:36-41); and Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12).
Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD came upon me, and He led me out in the spirit of the LORD and set me in the center of the plain, which was now filled with bones. 2 He made me walk among them in every direction so that I saw how many they were on the surface of the plain. How dry they were! 3 He asked me: Son of man, "can these bones come to life"? "Lord GOD," I answered, "you alone know that." 4 Then He said to me: Prophesy over these bones, and say to them: Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: See! "I will bring spirit into you, that you may come to life" 6 I will put sinews upon you, make flesh grow over you, cover you with skin, and "put spirit in you so that you may come to life" and know that I am the LORD. 7 I prophesied as I had been told, and even as I was prophesying I heard a noise; it was a rattling as the bones came together, bone joining bone. 8 I saw the sinews and the flesh come upon them, and the skin cover them, "but there was no spirit in them". 9 Then He said to me: Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, son of man, and say to the spirit: Thus says the Lord GOD: "From the four winds come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain that they may come to life". 10 I prophesied as He told me, and "the spirit came into them; they came alive and stood upright", a vast army. 11 Then He said to me: Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They have been saying, "Our bones are dried up, our hope is lost, and we are cut off." 12 Therefore, prophesy and say to them: Thus says the Lord GOD: O my people, "I will open your graves and have you rise from them", and bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when "I open your graves and have you rise from them", O my people! 14 I will put my Spirit in you that you may live, and I will settle you upon your land; thus you shall know that I am the LORD. I have promised, and I will do it, says the LORD. (NAB)
Just as her spirit returned to Jairus' twelve-year old daughter when Yeshua resurrected her to life (Matt. 9:18-25; Mark 5:22-42; Luke 8:41-55), so also we see here that the spirits of the dead Israelites return to their reconstituted mortal bodies to bring them back to life. These Israelites will live in the land of Israel during the millennial rule of Yeshua. They will be subjects of the Kingdom of God, but unlike resurrected believers, they will not have inheritance in the Kingdom at this time (I Cor. 15:50).

In Ecclesiastes, King Solomon whom God blessed with tremendous wisdom, says
Ecclesiastes 3
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecclesiastes 12
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If it were true that the soul goes to heaven at death, then you would expect these living, conscious souls to be praising God, wouldn't you? Well the King David, who was the "apple of God's eye" says:
Psalm 115
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms 30:9 "What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? "Will the dust praise You"? Will it declare Your truth? 10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy on me; LORD, be my helper!"

So we see that there is nothing but silence. Isaiah says there is no celebration or hope of anything after you die.
Isaiah 38
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Surely if a soul was still living (state of consciousness) after death, you would expect that it could see or be aware of whats going on. Furthermore, Isaiah speaks badly of those who seek teachers with "familiar spirits" who preach doctrines of seeking the dead. Obviously, he wouldn't say that if the dead had any form of conscious, knowledge, etc.
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? "for the living to the dead"?
In Kings we read just the opposite, just like the saying "see no evil, hear no evil".
2 Kings 22
20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
King David says very plainly that at death ones "thoughts perish".
Psalm 146
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Does that sound like anything living to you? King Solomon elaborates on this even more.
Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalm 88
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Psalm 6
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Going to the New Testament, we see that Luke says that King David, who had died more than one thousand years earlier is still buried and hasn't ascended to heaven.
Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
John says that it is the spirit (referring to the breath) that quickeneth (gives life). We saw that when God breathed into Adams nostrils and he became a "living soul".
John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Ezekiel 37
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Psalm 104
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalm 33:9
For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
The prophet Ezekiel speaking of the second coming of Christ says very plainly when the dead will come back to life what will transpire.
Ezekiel 37
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Job knew that when he would die that he would enter a deep sleep and would not be awaken until after God's wrath and then his change (immortality) would come.
Job 14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Christ referred to death as sleep (no consciousness, no awareness of anything). Furthermore, we read in John that Martha did not expect that her dead brother, Lazarus, would go anywhere until the resurrection which will take place at the second coming of Christ.
John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Stephen, at his death, mentions for the Lord to receive his spirit (breath) Note that he didn't say receive my soul.
Acts 7
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Christ says in reference to his second coming that the dead will hear his voice and live. Not before.
John 5
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Psalm 102
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Christ was the first to resurrect from the dead and when he returns his people will be awoken from their sleep and at that moment receive immortality, not before.
1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 24
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Lastly, let's examine the account of Saul conjuring up the spirit of Samuel. Saul was facing the Philistine army, and because of his disobedience, God had forsaken him. Since he was afraid of the Philistine army and God would not answer his inquiries about the coming battle, Saul resorted to the use of a medium to contact the dead prophet Samuel. The account is found in I Samuel 28:
I Samuel 28:11 The woman asked, 'Whom shall I conjure up for you?' He replied, 'Conjure up Samuel.' 12 The woman then saw Samuel and, giving a great cry, she said to Saul, 'Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!' 13 The king said, 'Do not be afraid! What do you see?' The woman replied to Saul, 'I see a ghost [Heb. 'elohim, lit. "god"] rising from the earth.' 14 'What is he like?' he asked. She replied, 'It is an old man coming up; he is wrapped in a cloak.' Saul then knew that it was Samuel and, bowing to the ground, prostrated himself. 15 Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed my "rest" by conjuring me up?' Saul replied, 'I am in great distress; the Philistines are waging war on me, and God has abandoned me and no longer answers me either by prophet or by dream; and so I have summoned you to tell me what I ought to do.' 16 Samuel said, 'Why consult me, when Yahweh has abandoned you and has become your enemy?' 17 Yahweh has treated you as he foretold through me; he has snatched the sovereignty from your hand and given it to your neighbour, David, 18 because you disobeyed Yahweh's voice and did not execute his fierce anger against Amalek. That is why Yahweh is treating you like this today. 19 What is more, Yahweh will deliver Israel and you too, into the power of the Philistines. "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me"; and Yahweh will hand over the army of Israel into the power of the Philistines.'
Those who believe that souls continue to live after the body dies sometimes use this passage to try and prove their point. However, if they really considered what "Samuel" says here, they might choose to ignore it.
One school of thought holds that this appearance by "Samuel" was only a demon disguised as the dead prophet. However, since the text seems to treat this 'elohim which appears as the actual Samuel, we will analyze the passage in that light.
Notice the very first thing Samuel says to Saul through the medium: "Why have you "disturbed my rest" by conjuring me up?" (v. 15). It certainly sounds like the dead Samuel was "asleep" in death, and wasn't too keen on being bothered by Saul and his medium.
From the Scriptures, we know that Samuel was a righteous man, a servant of God who judged Israel all his life. We also know that Saul was originally selected by God to be the king of Israel, but was later rejected by Him because of rebellion and disobedience (I Sam. 15:23).
Dualists believe the souls of saints go to heaven upon death, while the souls of those who reject God go to hell. Surely then, Samuel would have been in heaven and Saul would have gone to hell after his death under that scenario. But let's look at what Samuel tells Saul about his fate: "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me" (v. 19).
If we assume the entity conjured up was actually Samuel and not a deceptive demon, it's apparent that Samuel was called up by the medium from the sleep of death. He wasn't happy about having his rest disturbed. He told Saul that he and his sons would be dead after the next day's battle with the Philistines, and then they too would be asleep in sheol ("the grave") with him.
There is nothing in this encounter to suggest that souls remain conscious after death. In fact, the words of Samuel seem to clearly contradict that position. The best use for this passage of Scripture is to reiterate why God condemns mediums (Lev. 20:27; Deu. 18:11) and outlaws consulting the dead through them (Isa. 8:19).

As you can see that the Bible is very clear on the state of the dead. The Bible doesn't teach that the dead continue to exist in the form a soul after death. However, man continues to teach that same doctrine given to Eve that she would not die but would live for ever. Many use the parable about "The Rich Man and Lazarus" to support their doctrine concerning the state of the dead in heaven and hell. If you Post a request, I will send you a Biblical study on that topic. God Bless You.
PS. Please don't reply unless you have several Biblical verses that say contrary to what has been presented. Otherwise I won't read it. The proof is only and only the Bible.

Since when is Logic, or what appears to be logic, the criteria used to determine what actually happened? The rebellion of Lucifer and 1/3 of the host of Heaven was not logical, neither was the fall of man in the garden, unless one wishes to rationalise that away by one criteria or another. Note that you’re also assuming, A-PRIORI that you have a correct interpretation of the passage, and arguing against that passage from the assumption. Specifically what indication do you have from the text alone that the persecutors are dead by the time of the fifth seal, aside from the UNSUBSTANTIATED presupposition that the time period is over several centuries?
posted by Calvinist_Dark_Lord

Your use of terms like "a-priori bias into exegesis" really don't impress me if you're trying make yourself look smart because you know all these fancy two bit words. Logic isn't something that "appears to be". It either is or isn't.

Which was precisely my point. None the less, scripture records acts of others that are not Logical, and there are things that God does that look as if they are illogical. That is what I was saying, sorry you couldn’t follow.

The 4th seal occurred during the 1260 year prophecy of Daniel 7:23-25. This period covered the period during which the Inquisition (900AD to 1600AD, St.Bartholomew Massacre (1572) occurred. Are my dates correct? Can you tell me how many people were slaughtered during the reign of Pope Innocent III? I've got many more questions for you since you know all about that historical time frame.

Refer to my last. Whether you are correct on the dates of specific accounts of persecution or not, it isn’t relevant. You still have yet to prove that the events of the fourth seal are this time period. You need to be able to prove that from scripture and not the newspaper or the history book. As per how smart I am: I already told you Jimmy, that dog won’t hunt. I don’t need your acceptance or approval, whether you’re impressed or not means nothing to me. If you have problems with the terms then buy a dictionary and quit whining about it. If all you can do is repeat the same nonsense that you posted before when challenged on it, then you’re not as smart as you think you are. So what is your next act, telling us when the "rapture" occurs? I can hardly wait.< /sarcasm>. The last time I checked my bible (KJV or NASB), the prophecy of Daniel 7:23-25 said ...for a time, times, and half a time...Maybe that’s 1260 years, but maybe not. < sarcasm> After all, by your reasoning, why should we take the passage to be literal? Why you don’t see things like hands appearing in thin air don’t really happen, and things like the four beasts don’t exist, so why should we believe that you aren’t seeing things in Daniel that aren’t there, or even interpreting it correctly? < /sarcasm>

I didn't say that this is the altar of incence. The reason that these "souls" are all lying down "slain" next to this altar is because they were slain on an earthly altar. They were slain by their persecutors. Since you believe that these souls are in heaven, then which alter are they next to? Next, I guess you're going to say that there are sacrifices going on in heaven.

Not at all, the sacrifice of Christ was the only sacrifice that God accepted for sin. That was the whole idea behind the sacrificial system. Those martyrs weren’t sacrificed for their sins or anyone elses. So why would you think that there is a sacrificial altar in heaven, since there is no sacrifice made in heaven? There is no evidence from the text that these people were slain on earthly altar. Look at the fourth seal reference again.

7) When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
8) I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

I don’t see anything about being sacrificed on an earthen altar again. Besides, as you well know, scripture forbids a diseased (pestilence) or torn by animals (wild beasts of the earth) sacrifice, unless you’re going to try and tell me that section of scripture isn’t literal. This is precisely what I mean by your theology determining what scripture says instead of scripture.

i’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that this was a matter of "popular vote." How many times does God have to say something for it to be true? ~Trick question~ He doesn’t have to say it at all, it’s either true or it’s not.

Trying to dodge the question? That’s rich, you get challenged on your man-made heresy, and you presume to accuse me of dodging the question?

Maybe it's because the Bible doesn't have an answer that's convenient for you. My friend, who do you think you're fooling? You might try to fool me or many others, but you surely will not fool God. Don't try to weasel your way out of the 50 to 70 Biblical verses that I've presented by saying that I'm rationalizing.

Well then, you should be able to prove why just one verse makes your whole system come tumbling down. By the way, you still haven’t demonstrated from the scriptures that the claims you made on my one citation that rebuts your heretical doctrine are true. All you’ve done thus far is build one house of cards on another, and go ranting with nonsense that cannot be proven from the text of scripture when challenged.

You'll soon meet your MAKER, my brother, and you'll be able to tell HIM that he's rationalizing also. You seem so curious to know if I'm an atheist, or another one of your fancy terms. I am an apostle of God who teaches and obeys his doctrines and commandments according to the Word and not false doctrines of men disguised as sheep in wolves clothing.

i knew what you are when I asked the question. Nobody here is fooled:

6) I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7) which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8) But even if we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9) As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Galatians 1:6-8 NASB

Don't send me any more of your personal opinions about "logic", "a-priori", "popular vote", Blah, Blah, Blah responses since you can not provide but one verse which you don't even understand.

That’s a hoot after telling me that you can’t understand. As per one verse, again, How many times does God have to say something for it to be true?

If you don’t want to communicate with me, i’ll not shed a tear, I get enough spam, without having to plow through yours.

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