To: Jimmy Simon
Might as well get further light and knowledge from Joseph Smith's White Salamander while we are at it. The Mormons use all sorts of KJV verses out of context and provide a long list of verses to obscure the basic flaws in their incredibly poor doctrine. You are on the same path as Mr Hinckley and his flock. Or the JW's for that matter. Nice try cult boy.
To: CARepubGal
The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 15 (The Nature of Man)
Might as well get further light and knowledge from Joseph Smith's White Salamander while we are at it. The Mormons use all sorts of KJV verses out of context and provide a long list of verses to obscure the basic flaws in their incredibly poor doctrine. You are on the same path as Mr Hinckley and his flock. Or the JW's for that matter. Nice try cult boy.
No thanks, I've read many books on various religious themes and they're all the same, promoting false man-made religions. I know the Mormon doctrines and they're all following Mother Babylon the mother of Harlots being full of traditional beliefs and doctrines of devils that they keep passing down through the years, but never teach the fundamental truths of the Bible. Each one picks a few verses here and there from the Bible and twist it around to fit their own little agenda, and then concoct a whole new vocabulary with large words to make it sound like they know something that no one else knows and on and on and on. Then when someone presents to them a plethora of verses directly from the Bible, that all say the same thing, with absolutely no contradictions, that's very easy to understand with no question about it's interpretation, all of a sudden, if it goes against their dogma which they've accepted for years as truth, they have very little recourse but to revert to name calling like "cult boy". No my friend, I don't have a doctrine. God has the doctrine. I just teach it and try to follow the commandments and precepts that he sets forth directly from his Book, The Most Holy Bible. I've presented 50 to 70 Biblical verses that all say basically death is a sleep and no one becomes immortal at death until the 2nd coming. The Bible does not teach anything about a state of consciousness, knowledge, etc. after one dies. Not until the 2nd coming. You may not like it but that's what it says. Your getting upset, denying it, or name calling will not change the WORD of Almighty God. You haven't presented a single verse to refute anything I've quoted from the Bible, so obviously you can't find any verses. And most likely you know very little about the Bible. And don't take this as a put down, because at one time I was very ignorant about the Word of God. It wasn't till someone made me aware that maybe I had been misled. It is a confirmation to me that I am speaking the Word of God when one can't refute it using the Bible. How can you refute the Truth with the Truth? It's impossible. Here are some more verses.
Job 3:11-18 "Why did I not "die" at birth? Why did I not perish when I came from the womb? Why did the knees receive me? Or why the breasts, that I should nurse? For now I would have lain still and been quiet, I would have been "asleep"; then I would have been at "rest" With kings and counselors of the earth, who built ruins for themselves, Or with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver; Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child, like infants who never saw light? There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at" rest". There the prisoners "rest" together; they do not hear the voice of the oppressor. The small and great are there, and the servant is free from his master.
We see John in vision of Revelation speaking of the dead martyrs during the 4th seal (Inquisition, St. Barthowlomew Massacre, Martin Luther, Waldenses, etc.) as being in a state of "rest" waiting until the horrible persecutions, of their brother Christians, which is to return in the last days.
Revelation 6:10,11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them: and it was said unto them, that they should "rest" yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fullfilled.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the "dead" which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may "rest" from their labours; and their works do follow them.
The angel who revealed end-time events to Daniel (Dan. 10-12) confirms the scriptural understanding of the status of the dead with his words to him regarding his fate.
Daniel 12:13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall "rest", and "will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
Daniel is told by the angel that he will "rest in death until the time of the end", and then he will arise in the resurrection to claim his inheritance. This awakening from the sleep of death at the resurrection is spoken of many times in the Bible.
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who "sleep" in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Isaiah 26:19 "Your dead shall live"; together with my dead body "they shall arise". "Awake" and sing, "you who dwell in dust"; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and "the earth shall cast out the dead."
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for "the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth", those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Ephesians 5:13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead", and Christ will give you light."
As we have seen over and over, the Bible speaks of death as a condition of unconsciousness similar to sleep. Many quote the apostle Paul's writings (Phi. 1:20-24; II Cor. 5:1-9) to supposedly disprove "soul sleep." However, it is from Paul that we receive the most emphatic declaration of the resurrection from the dead as the "only" hope for those who have died.
Let's examine Paul's comments about the resurrection from the 15th chapter of I Corinthians in detail:
I Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been "raised" [egegertai] from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Here Paul begins to dispute a teaching brought to Corinth that denied the bodily resurrection of the dead. This heresy likely took root among the Corinthian church due to the strong cultural influence exerted by the dualistic Greek view of human nature. The Greek view that the body and soul are separate, and that the soul lives on after the body dies, has influenced Christian doctrine since the first century. This view apparently had caused some Corinthian believers to falsely conclude that a resurrection from the dead was not necessary, since the souls of departed believers were already with Christ in heaven.
However, Paul, coming from a Pharisaic Jewish background (Acts 23:6; 26:5; Phi. 3:5), viewed the afterlife in a completely different way. The Dictionary of Paul and His Letters (DPHL) has this to say about Paul's beliefs regarding the resurrection:
Paul's teaching about the bodily resurrection arises out of a Jewish anthropology in which the "soul" (Heb nephesh, Gk psyche) is the animating principle of human life. In mainstream Jewish thought human beings do not have souls, they are souls. . . . Given this background it is perfectly understandable how in Romans 8:23 Paul describes the effects of the resurrection in terms of the ultimate "redemption of our bodies" . . . (p. 810)
As a side note, the Greek word egegertai ("raised") found in verse 12 is a form of the Greek verb egeiro. The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament states: "The basic meaning of egeiro is (trans.) to wake from sleep . . . or (intrans.) awaken, rise . . . (p. 372, vol. 1). Literally, Paul's comment could be translated: "He has been awakened from the dead . . ."
I Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not "risen" [egegertai]. 14 And if Christ is not "risen" [egegertai], then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He "raised up" [egeiren] Christ, whom He did not "raise up" [egeiren] -- if in fact the dead do not "rise "[egeirontai].
Paul attacks the very heart of this false doctrine in verse 13. He firmly links the future resurrection of the dead with the past resurrection of Christ. If the dead aren't going to be awakened from their sleep at the resurrection, then Paul says that neither has Christ been awakened from death. If Christ has not been awakened from death, then their hope is in vain. Additionally, Paul and the other apostles have been spreading a false message!
I Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead do not "rise" [egeirontai], then Christ is not "risen" [egegertai]. 17 And if Christ is not "risen" [egegertai], your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
For emphasis, Paul again states in verse 16 that if the dead are not going to wake up from the sleep of death in the future, then Christ has not already been awakened. If this is the case, Paul tells them that their faith is useless and there has been no forgiveness for their sins.
I Corinthians15:18 Then also those who have "fallen asleep" in Christ have "perished". 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
Now Paul takes his case a step further. If there is no resurrection, then those believers who have died while believing in Christ have "ceased to exist"! If there is no resurrection, then believers only have hope in Christ during their mortal life on this earth.
There is no ambiguity in Paul's argument. He clearly states that the "only" hope for life after death is the resurrection. Paul's position here totally negates the Hellenistic belief that the disembodied souls of the dead saints are in heaven with Christ.
I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is "risen" [egegertai] from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have "fallen asleep". 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
After laying out the ultimate consequences the rejection of the resurrection had on their theology, Paul goes on to state the facts to the Corinthians. Yeshua had indeed been awakened from the sleep of the dead. When God roused him from the sleep of death to glorious eternal life, Christ became the firstfruits of all those who will be awakened from death later on. Since death originally entered the human race because of Adam's sin, the resurrection of the dead to immortality came by way of a man's perfect obedience. But there is to be an order to the resurrection to immortality: Yeshua the Messiah first, then those messianic believers at the coming of Christ. More detail than this we are not given, but Paul does tell us the end result; Christ will reign until the last enemy, death, is destroyed.
Paul sums up his dissertation on death and the resurrection toward the end of chapter 15:
I Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: "We shall not all sleep", but we shall all be changed -- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and "the dead will be raised incorruptible", and "we shall be changed". 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Paul begins here with a statement that is often overlooked; flesh and blood mortals cannot INHERIT the Kingdom of God. As numerous other Scriptures show, however, they will be in the Kingdom of God. He goes on to say that not all believers will die before Messiah Yeshua returns. But when he returns, all believers will be changed instantly at the sounding of the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15-18). At the sounding of this trumpet, the dead saints will awake from their sleep in new, spiritual bodies, and the bodies of those believers then living will be changed to spirit. When this happens, "death is swallowed up in victory!"
Paul spoke of this same event in his first letter to the Thessalonians:
I Thessalonians 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about "those who are asleep", so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
In verse 13 he defines for the church at Thessalonica why he is writing; to give them comfort and hope regarding the fate of those believers who had died ("fallen asleep").
I Thessalonians 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have "fallen asleep" in him.
Verse 14 is an affirmation of faith in the resurrection. Paul says that "just as" we believe God raised Yeshua from the dead, so "also" we believe that God will resurrect those who died believing in Christ at his return.
There are those who say this verse teaches that Jesus will bring the conscious souls of the dead believers with him from heaven to be reunited with their resurrected bodies at his coming. However, this interpretation of verse 14 totally misses the point of what Paul is saying. If that understanding of the state of the dead was to be the Thessalonians' consolation and hope, Paul would have had no need to address the resurrection at all. He simply could have stated that the souls of the dead believers were at that time alive and with Christ in heaven. What more consolation would they have needed regarding the fate of their dead brothers and sisters?
But that is not at all the message Paul presents. The hope for the dead, as Paul presents it to the Thessalonians, is the resurrection of Christ. Just as he told the Corinthians, Paul emphasizes that Yeshua's resurrection is the guarantee of the future resurrection of the "sleeping" saints, who will awake at the time of his return.
I Thessalonians 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have "fallen asleep". 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and "the dead in Christ will rise first". 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Paul's consolation to the Thessalonians is the expectation that they will be reunited with their sleeping brethren at the resurrection of the dead. This resurrection will occur when Yeshua comes down from heaven as the last trumpet is blown. The dead will rise from their graves first, and together with them those believers who remain alive will be changed into spirit and will ascend to meet Yeshua in the air (Matt. 24:31). Paul is telling the Thessalonians to have hope in the "resurrection", not to have hope in being a disembodied, conscious spirit in heaven.
In I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4, Paul speaks specifically about the resurrection to immortality. But as we mentioned earlier, the Bible also shows a resurrection to mortal life. The prophet Ezekiel speaks of this resurrection, which will be like the physical resurrections of the widow's son from Zarephath (1 Kings 17:17-23); the Shunammite's son (II Kings 4:17-37); the widow's son from Nain (Luke 7:11-16); the daughter of Jairus (Matt. 9:18-25; Mark 5:22-42; Luke 8:41-55); Lazarus (John 11:1-45); the saints raised in Jerusalem when Yeshua died on the cross (Matt. 27:50-53); Tabitha (Acts 9:36-41); and Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12).
Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD came upon me, and He led me out in the spirit of the LORD and set me in the center of the plain, which was now filled with bones. 2 He made me walk among them in every direction so that I saw how many they were on the surface of the plain. How dry they were! 3 He asked me: Son of man, "can these bones come to life"? "Lord GOD," I answered, "you alone know that." 4 Then He said to me: Prophesy over these bones, and say to them: Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: See! "I will bring spirit into you, that you may come to life" 6 I will put sinews upon you, make flesh grow over you, cover you with skin, and "put spirit in you so that you may come to life" and know that I am the LORD. 7 I prophesied as I had been told, and even as I was prophesying I heard a noise; it was a rattling as the bones came together, bone joining bone. 8 I saw the sinews and the flesh come upon them, and the skin cover them, "but there was no spirit in them". 9 Then He said to me: Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, son of man, and say to the spirit: Thus says the Lord GOD: "From the four winds come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain that they may come to life". 10 I prophesied as He told me, and "the spirit came into them; they came alive and stood upright", a vast army. 11 Then He said to me: Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They have been saying, "Our bones are dried up, our hope is lost, and we are cut off." 12 Therefore, prophesy and say to them: Thus says the Lord GOD: O my people, "I will open your graves and have you rise from them", and bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when "I open your graves and have you rise from them", O my people! 14 I will put my Spirit in you that you may live, and I will settle you upon your land; thus you shall know that I am the LORD. I have promised, and I will do it, says the LORD. (NAB)
Just as her spirit returned to Jairus' twelve-year old daughter when Yeshua resurrected her to life (Matt. 9:18-25; Mark 5:22-42; Luke 8:41-55), so also we see here that the spirits of the dead Israelites return to their reconstituted mortal bodies to bring them back to life. These Israelites will live in the land of Israel during the millennial rule of Yeshua. They will be subjects of the Kingdom of God, but unlike resurrected believers, they will not have inheritance in the Kingdom at this time (I Cor. 15:50).
In Ecclesiastes, King Solomon whom God blessed with tremendous wisdom, says
Ecclesiastes 3
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecclesiastes 12
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If it were true that the soul goes to heaven at death, then you would expect these living, conscious souls to be praising God, wouldn't you? Well the King David, who was the "apple of God's eye" says:
Psalm 115
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms 30:9 "What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? "Will the dust praise You"? Will it declare Your truth? 10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy on me; LORD, be my helper!"
So we see that there is nothing but silence. Isaiah says there is no celebration or hope of anything after you die.
Isaiah 38
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Surely if a soul was still living (state of consciousness) after death, you would expect that it could see or be aware of whats going on. Furthermore, Isaiah speaks badly of those who seek teachers with "familiar spirits" who preach doctrines of seeking the dead. Obviously, he wouldn't say that if the dead had any form of conscious, knowledge, etc.
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? "for the living to the dead"?
In Kings we read just the opposite, just like the saying "see no evil, hear no evil".
2 Kings 22
20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
King David says very plainly that at death ones "thoughts perish".
Psalm 146
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Does that sound like anything living to you? King Solomon elaborates on this even more.
Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalm 88
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Psalm 6
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Going to the New Testament, we see that Luke says that King David, who had died more than one thousand years earlier is still buried and hasn't ascended to heaven.
Acts 2
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
John says that it is the spirit (referring to the breath) that quickeneth (gives life). We saw that when God breathed into Adams nostrils and he became a "living soul".
John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Ezekiel 37
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Psalm 104
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalm 33:9
For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
The prophet Ezekiel speaking of the second coming of Christ says very plainly when the dead will come back to life what will transpire.
Ezekiel 37
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Job knew that when he would die that he would enter a deep sleep and would not be awaken until after God's wrath and then his change (immortality) would come.
Job 14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Christ referred to death as sleep (no consciousness, no awareness of anything). Furthermore, we read in John that Martha did not expect that her dead brother, Lazarus, would go anywhere until the resurrection which will take place at the second coming of Christ.
John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Stephen, at his death, mentions for the Lord to receive his spirit (breath) Note that he didn't say receive my soul.
Acts 7
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Christ says in reference to his second coming that the dead will hear his voice and live. Not before.
John 5
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Psalm 102
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Christ was the first to resurrect from the dead and when he returns his people will be awoken from their sleep and at that moment receive immortality, not before.
1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 24
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Lastly, let's examine the account of Saul conjuring up the spirit of Samuel. Saul was facing the Philistine army, and because of his disobedience, God had forsaken him. Since he was afraid of the Philistine army and God would not answer his inquiries about the coming battle, Saul resorted to the use of a medium to contact the dead prophet Samuel. The account is found in I Samuel 28:
I Samuel 28:11 The woman asked, 'Whom shall I conjure up for you?' He replied, 'Conjure up Samuel.' 12 The woman then saw Samuel and, giving a great cry, she said to Saul, 'Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!' 13 The king said, 'Do not be afraid! What do you see?' The woman replied to Saul, 'I see a ghost [Heb. 'elohim, lit. "god"] rising from the earth.' 14 'What is he like?' he asked. She replied, 'It is an old man coming up; he is wrapped in a cloak.' Saul then knew that it was Samuel and, bowing to the ground, prostrated himself. 15 Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed my "rest" by conjuring me up?' Saul replied, 'I am in great distress; the Philistines are waging war on me, and God has abandoned me and no longer answers me either by prophet or by dream; and so I have summoned you to tell me what I ought to do.' 16 Samuel said, 'Why consult me, when Yahweh has abandoned you and has become your enemy?' 17 Yahweh has treated you as he foretold through me; he has snatched the sovereignty from your hand and given it to your neighbour, David, 18 because you disobeyed Yahweh's voice and did not execute his fierce anger against Amalek. That is why Yahweh is treating you like this today. 19 What is more, Yahweh will deliver Israel and you too, into the power of the Philistines. "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me"; and Yahweh will hand over the army of Israel into the power of the Philistines.'
Those who believe that souls continue to live after the body dies sometimes use this passage to try and prove their point. However, if they really considered what "Samuel" says here, they might choose to ignore it.
One school of thought holds that this appearance by "Samuel" was only a demon disguised as the dead prophet. However, since the text seems to treat this 'elohim which appears as the actual Samuel, we will analyze the passage in that light.
Notice the very first thing Samuel says to Saul through the medium: "Why have you "disturbed my rest" by conjuring me up?" (v. 15). It certainly sounds like the dead Samuel was "asleep" in death, and wasn't too keen on being bothered by Saul and his medium.
From the Scriptures, we know that Samuel was a righteous man, a servant of God who judged Israel all his life. We also know that Saul was originally selected by God to be the king of Israel, but was later rejected by Him because of rebellion and disobedience (I Sam. 15:23).
Dualists believe the souls of saints go to heaven upon death, while the souls of those who reject God go to hell. Surely then, Samuel would have been in heaven and Saul would have gone to hell after his death under that scenario. But let's look at what Samuel tells Saul about his fate: "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me" (v. 19).
If we assume the entity conjured up was actually Samuel and not a deceptive demon, it's apparent that Samuel was called up by the medium from the sleep of death. He wasn't happy about having his rest disturbed. He told Saul that he and his sons would be dead after the next day's battle with the Philistines, and then they too would be asleep in sheol ("the grave") with him.
There is nothing in this encounter to suggest that souls remain conscious after death. In fact, the words of Samuel seem to clearly contradict that position. The best use for this passage of Scripture is to reiterate why God condemns mediums (Lev. 20:27; Deu. 18:11) and outlaws consulting the dead through them (Isa. 8:19).
As you can see that the Bible is very clear on the state of the dead. The Bible doesn't teach that the dead continue to exist in the form a soul after death. However, man continues to teach that same doctrine given to Eve that she would not die but would live for ever. Many use the parable about "The Rich Man and Lazarus" to support their doctrine concerning the state of the dead in heaven and hell. If you Post a request, I will send you a Biblical study on that topic. God Bless You.
PS. Please don't reply unless you have several Biblical verses that say contrary to what has been presented. Otherwise I won't read it. The proof is only and only the Bible.
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson