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To: Jimmy Simon
The death of a believer cannot separate him from the Lord under any circumstances.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any creature shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

Death for the believer means being face to face with the Lord.

Here are some helpful verses.

2Cor 5:8 , Rom 8:1, 1Pet 1:4-5, Heb 9:21, Rev 21:4, 1st Thes 4:13,18, 1Cor 15:54-57, Ps 116:15, Ps 23:4, Phil 1:20-21
9 posted on 10/28/2003 6:47:55 PM PST by Cvengr (0:^))
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To: Cvengr

About: The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 15 (The Nature of Man)

The death of a believer cannot separate him from the Lord under any circumstances.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any creature shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

Death for the believer means being face to face with the Lord.

Here are some helpful verses.

2Cor 5:8 , Rom 8:1, 1Pet 1:4-5, Heb 9:21, Rev 21:4, 1st Thes 4:13,18, 1Cor 15:54-57, Ps 116:15, Ps 23:4, Phil 1:20-21


Let's look at the first verse that you bring up.

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I don't know what point you're trying to make by bringing this verse up. Absent from the body simply means not being of a carnal nature but becoming of a spiritual nature. In this particular verse he doesn't mention when this occurrs.

Next you mention:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In this verse, Paul is simply saying that one who gives up the carnal desires of this world and does the will of the Holy Spirit by his good works, then will he be acceptable in Christ. As the Scripture says, "By their fruits you shall know them".



Romans 8:38,39 does not say that death will "permanently" separate us from God nor does it say that a soul goes to heaven or hell or purgatory. We will live again, conquer death, resurrect from the grave, receive immortality, and become incorruptible only and only at the second coming of Christ. It is written in
1 Corinthians 15:20,23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming". This verse clearly doesn't teach that the dead go to heaven or hell before Christ's coming. It says exactly the opposite.
It is very clear that the dead will rise first at Christ's coming, not 1 second before. Read
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain"until the coming of the Lord" will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the "dead in Christ will rise first". Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
We see in Ezekiel that the army of saints are those who come out of the graves, not heaven, at Christ's 2nd coming when he comes with his army of angels from heaven. Ezekiel 37:10 "So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army." Verse 12 "open your graves", referring to the same as

1Cor.15:42-56 So also is the "resurrection of the dead". It is sown in corruption; it is "raised in incorruption":
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is "raised a spiritual body". There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a "quickening spirit".
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and "afterward that which is spiritual".
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly".
50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed",
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
53 For this corruptible must put on "incorruption", and this mortal must put on "immortality".
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't think there is any need for me to explain what these verses are saying. They're self explanatory. Although the verses you provided are Biblical, you haven't presented a single verse that says that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death or a verse that says that there is an immortal soul or a verse that says the dead will go to heaven before his second coming. Please provide me with verses that say these things very explicitly.





.
In reference to 2Corinthians 5:8, Paul doesn't say when we'll be present when the Lord. It would a distortion to say that we'll be with God the exact moment that one dies. To the contrary, Paul says just the opposite in

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
And of course, when he speaks of "absent from the body" he is referring to what he says in 1 Corinthians 15:44-56 It is sown a natural body; it is "raised a spiritual body". There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a "quickening spirit".
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and "afterward that which is spiritual".
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly".
50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed",
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
53 For this corruptible must put on "incorruption", and this mortal must put on "immortality".
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't think there is any need for me to explain what these verses are saying. They're self explanatory. Although the verses you provided are Biblical, you haven't presented a single verse that says that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death or a verse that says that there is an immortal soul or a verse that says the dead will go to heaven before his second coming. Please provide me with verses that say these things very explicitly.


In reference to
1Peter 1:4,5 To an inheritance "incorruptible", and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed "in the last time".

Excellent passage where we see Peter agreeing with what Paul says in Corinthians. He says "inheritance incorruptible" and in verse 5 "revealed in the last time." Paul says at the "last trump" "raised incorruptible", let's read
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the "last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be "raised incorruptible", and we shall be "changed". For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on "immortality". The Bible plainly doesn't contradict itself. You'll find it says the same thing from beginning to end. Man, on the other hand, tries to change it to satisfy his own doctrines. The Bible clearly says for us to beware of false doctrines. In reference to

Hebrews 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. You left out some of the most important verses. One thing we must always learn to do when we study the MOST HOLY BIBLE, is to read the context of the topic we're studying. Now let's look at

Hebrews 9:19-22 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

We see here Moses, during the time of the earthly tabernacle, not heavenly. I don't really understand your point for bringing this up.

Let's move on to the next verses
Revelation 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This is another of my favorite verses. You will note that in verse 1 he is referring to the new heaven and the new earth. Obviously this scene takes place after Christ's 2nd coming and we will be with him in the "heavenly tabernacle", the true tabernacle not made by human hands as the one he's referring to in Hebrews 9:21 which we've just went over. Let's read about this heavenly tabernacle that Paul speaks of in

Hebrews 9:11 But "Christ being come an high priest" of good things to come, by a greater and more "perfect tabernacle, not made with hands", that is to say, not of this building;
and 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the "true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man".

As we see, Christ is serving this moment as our "high priest" in the true heavenly sanctuary. If you wish I can send you a plethora of Biblical passages just on this topic, however, let's not get sidetracked and move on for now. I love the next verse you bring up:

Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

. It's a beautiful verse. I would like, at this moment, to add a couple of verses in regards to this Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the "blood of the saints", and with the "blood of the martyrs of Jesus": and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Of course the woman here is the apostate church (Mother Babylon, the Mother of Harlots) of Revelation 17 who drinks out of a golden cup.
Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the "blood of saints and prophets", and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Yes, the Lord has great love for those martys who died before and during the so called "holy" Inquisition and The Saint Bartholomew Massacre, to only mention a couple. http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0424.htm
http://www.reformation.org/bart.html
And also those who follow the teachings of The HOLY BIBLE will be persecuted again in the future by the agents of Satan. We read that in verse 11 of

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that "should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled".

You bring up Psalms 23:4 Although it's a beautiful and well known verse, I don't understand the point that you are trying to make? Please clarify?

In Philippians 1:20-21 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Paul speaks of magnifying God whether he be living or dead and "to be" with Christ. Does he say when he expects to be with Christ? The answer is no he doesn't. If he would have said that he expects to be with Christ at the moment of his death, then he would be contradicting himself in

1Corinthians 15:42-56 So also is the "resurrection of the dead". It is sown in corruption; it is "raised in incorruption":
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is "raised a spiritual body". There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a "quickening spirit".
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and "afterward that which is spiritual".
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly".
50 Now this I say, brethren, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed",
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at the last trump": for the trumpet shall sound, and "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
53 For this corruptible must put on "incorruption", and this mortal must put on "immortality".
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

It doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't think there is any need for me to explain what these verses are saying. They're self explanatory. Although the verses you provided are Biblical, you haven't presented a single verse that says that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death or a verse that says that there is an immortal soul or a verse that says the dead will go to heaven before his second coming. Please provide me with verses that say these things very explicitly. I have now given you probably more than 70 verses to show that there is no such thing as an "immortal soul" which goes to heaven at death. God Bless You.





10 posted on 10/29/2003 6:15:22 PM PST by Jimmy Simon
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