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To: Jimmy Simon
The Bible doesn't teach that the dead continue to exist in the form a soul after death.

9)And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) Ant they cried out with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelations 6:9-10 KJV

Just in case you're wondering, the Greek word psuche is used here for soul.

4 posted on 10/26/2003 12:28:18 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
About: The Institutes Book 1, chap 15 (The Nature of Man)

The word "soul" (psuche) has various definitions in Strong's Concordance: Breath, life, living being,etc.
Therefore, if one relys solely on definitions from a Concordance or dictionary to determine exactly what a passage in scripture is saying, then there is a possibility of completely missing the point. For example, the Bible, in several places uses a figure of speech which we call personification. Specifically in
Genesis 4:9,10 "And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."
Of course, we know that blood can not speak. The LORD here is using a figure of speech to indicate that he knows that Cain is dead. Another example is
Habakkuk 2:11 "For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it."
Is it correct to say that stones and timber can cry out and speak? Of course not. You can research the Hebrew Concordance all day and never get the answer based on definitions. These verses and several others in Scripture along with the one you mentioned, Revelation 6:9-10, are examples showing that you can not take everything in the Bible literally. That includes the parables in the Gospels and the prophecies in the Old and New Testament. There is another passage in my King James version which is in error. Unless one becomes aware of it, he can very easily be misled, which is almost what happened to me. The verse is Jude 1:14 "And Enoch.... saying....the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." That's not what the Book of Enoch 1:9 says. It says ten thousands of his "holy ones." http://exodus2006.com/5enoch.htm Matthew 25:31 says "holy angels". Mark 8:38 says the same. So does 2 Thessalonians 1:7 . After doing research, God lead me to the truth. It takes much study and guidance from God if you're to understand what the Bible is saying. Now let's read again what John sees occurring during the "fifth seal".
Revelation 6: 9 - 11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried out with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
There is plenty evidence, which we will note shortly, to show that these verses are not to be taken literally. The representation is symbolical. First, the ones who were slain were the ones mentioned during the previous "fourth seal".
Revelation 6:8 "...power was given....to kill with the sword...hunger..".
Anyone who has studied Bible prophecy is well aware that each of these seals encompasses periods of up to several hundred years. For example, the persecutions represented under the 4th seal includes the period of the Crusades, Holy Inquisitions, St. Batholomew massacre, until the late 18th century. Over 150 million Bible following Christians from God's true church died due to religious persecution. I could speak about this for days. If you want more on this subject, I'll send you books of information, but let's get back to the subject. If these souls who had been slain are in heaven under an alter, their persecutors are most certainly dead by the time of the 5th seal. So why would the dead martyrs be asking for vengance on someone who is dead and whom they can see burning in the fires of hell? What greater vengeance could God possibly take? It doesn't logically make sense that this entire representation is to be taken literally in heaven. Also the only altar mentioned in the heavenly sanctuary is the altar of incense. Never does the scripture say that dead bodies were to be placed near that altar during any part of the sanctuary service. The altar of Incense was never used in this way. The only altar in the earthly sanctuary service that had dead animal sacrifices next to it was the sacrificial altar. And there are certainly no sacrifices taking place in heaven.Thus there is no reason to believe that this vision takes place in heaven but on earth. Do you believe that a soul in heaven or hell has blood or flesh? These are items which the immaterial soul, as popularly understood, is not supposed to possess. This is another one of many reasons why these victims were beheaded on the earthly altars of their persecutors during the period of the 4th seal. Another question, do you think that these martyrs, if they are in heaven, would be worried about if God is going to take vengeance on their persecutors? I would expect them to be jumping for joy and glad to see that they were counted worthy to have made it through the pearly gates of heaven. If I were in their shoes at this time, vengeance would be the last thing on my mind. I'de probably be glad that I had been found to be a loyal servant and died in the faith and that my works had followed me.
Revelation 14: 12,13
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice form heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from hence forth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. "For that reason John sees these martyrs in vision being clothed in white because white robes or garments are always symbolical of God's commandments. And these martyrs, whose works "for the word of God and for the testimony which they held" were worthy in his vision to receive the white garments.
In reference to souls being "dead". I agree one hundred per cent with that. It's Biblical. Thanks for bringing it up again.
Ezekiel 18
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
The Bible is very clear on this. As you can read, it says that a soul can die. Death occurrs when the Breath of Life separates from the dust of the earth from which we are made of. At this point, life, consciousness, knowledge, etc. ceases to exist and as my study shows from scripture, you enter into a "sleep" not to be awoken until the second coming which takes place after the 7 last plagues of Rev.16. Job says very plainly that he doesn't expect to become immortal until after the wrath. Meanwhile, he expects to be in a deep sleep.
Job 14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
One could play a game of semantics with this all day long, however, that will not change what the MOST HOLY BIBLE teaches. I have never seen anyone who can show me any passage from the Bible saying that a soul goes to heaven or hell at death. It does not exist. Many try to use the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man to substantiate their reasoning for a soul going to heaven or hell but again they miss the whole point of the parable. If you want a plethora of Biblical information on this, advise me on this same thread. I'll gladly share this with you. May God Bless You in your studies of his Holy Word.





7 posted on 10/27/2003 8:00:44 PM PST by Jimmy Simon
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