Posted on 09/24/2003 3:06:09 PM PDT by Lorianne
A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. _________________
Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls
John Hooper in Rome Wednesday September 24, 2003 The Guardian
A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. The document would also clamp down on adult, lay pastoral assistants. It would forbid priests during sermons quoting from ethical texts other than the Gospels. And it would rank services jointly celebrated with Protestant ministers or Orthodox priests alongside black masses as one of the four "most serious" abuses
In a clear effort to block, or, at least dilute, the measure, a leaked text of the draft was this week published in Jesus, the monthly review of the Society of St Paul, an international Catholic organisation.
One Vatican insider was yesterday quoted by the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero as saying it contained "idiocies so mad as to incite fear".
The document was compiled by officials from two Vatican ministries, responsible for doctrine and liturgy, after the Pope called earlier this year for new guidelines on the way masses are held. Many clerics had complained that liberalisation and experiment in recent decades had left them not knowing what was allowed.
Catholics in western, and particularly northern, Europe are likely to be most taken aback by the Vatican officials' determination to block one of the few means of participation in church ritual for women.
The draft text states that priests should only allow girls to help them at mass if they have a special dispensation from their bishop and there is "just cause", which Italian commentators took to mean an absence of boys. According to the leaked draft, priests ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls".
In developing countries, where the Catholic church now has most of its members, the most controversial injunction will be the one banning "applause and dance within the place of worship, even outside the celebration of [mass]".
Dance is an integral part of worship in Africa and Asia and has figured in numerous services attended by the Pope. Clapping is also commonplace in Italy at weddings, baptisms and even during funerals.
The draft "instruction" was reportedly tabled in June and came in for stiff criticism at a meeting of the two departments. A final version is due to be published this year.
Aren't they all?
Pedofile or pederast? There is a difference.
There is a big difference between gossiping and being brave enough to come forward with the truth. The light of truth will always give us a reason to strengthen our resolve and adhere more closely to God.
One of the blessings of having a faithful priest or pastor to aid you in your walk with Christ, is his discretion when it comes to personal matters and his belief that God will love you and help you at all times. Often this close interaction and discussion of our lives and our faith, leads us to a greater understanding of God's love. I don't believe you can characterize all priests or pastors' dealings with the parishoners as being cloaked in secrecy or darkness.
The problem with the folks who fell hook, line and sinker for all these novelties is that,once they accepted them, they can't admit that they might have made a mistake. It's as if the Coca Cola company insisted that New Coke was better and more popular with people even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. At least Coca Cola learned from their mistake.
Since these "novelties" (like permanent deacons, and the Anglican dispensation) were approved by two popes, am I correct in assuming that Pius XII (who also changed the liturgy) was the last "real" pope to you?
The Tridentine Mass should be widely available. I'm all for that.
But the Novus Ordo is the normative Mass, we permanent deacons continue to increase in number, and laymen will play an increasingly larger role in the Church.
What I've read of this thread so far was mostly talking about the altar girls, but this was the bit that jumped out at me. Among other things, what would this do to Catholic military chaplains?
Being a Protestant myself, I can't say I'm too amused with being compared to a Black Mass in seriousness. Ah well, still no skin off my nose.
Drew Garrett
What I've read of this thread so far was mostly talking about the altar girls, but this was the bit that jumped out at me. Among other things, what would this do to Catholic military chaplains?
Being a Protestant myself, I can't say I'm too amused with being compared to a Black Mass in seriousness. Ah well, still no skin off my nose.
Drew Garrett
The girl's presence at the alter probably means there is one less boy there. If she is not out-right displacing the boy, having her fill the position means there is less ipetus to find a boy to fill the position. As it stands at many churchs today, all of the alter servers are girls and there are no boys. Being an alter server increases the chances of a boy later seeking the priesthood, therefore we should seek to have as many positions filled with boys as possible.
There is one important psychological characteristic of boys - they instinctively do not want to appear or be "girly". So girls can push boys out, at least those boys who should be priests. :)
Are girls are less "pure" than boys? Do they sully the altar?
Watch out, my first post on this thread was along this same line and it was deleted along with 2 others talking about the gay priests. But then again I had some Bustard on my behind who obviously thought I shouldn't voice an opinion and hit the cry button.Hope you have better luck.
Some of us whisky-swillin' Irish Catholics are prepared as well.
I wish I was what I sound.
here is a question for you; After communion is given and you say amen, I was taught not to make the sign of the cross because it detracts from the moment and draws attention to yourself and away from God. My Dad always crosses himself and in our Church it runs about 70/30 who cross themselves after communion......any wisdom?
The Sign of the Cross is quite probably the oldest sacramental in Christendom.
It is an expression of one's faith in God's triune nature.
When one uses it as it was intended - namely, to express faith - it is never inappropriate.
Surely one of the best times to express one's faith in the mystery of the Trinity is at the exact moment when one partakes of the mystery of the Incarnation.
There is no good or canonically legitimate reason to forbid someone from making the Sign of the Cross at communion - it is a good and pious practice.
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