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Freepers call to action re. Terri Schindler-Schiavo. Make a complaint against Judge Greer:
Various ^ | August 28, 2003

Posted on 08/28/2003 5:20:42 AM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl

Freepers, we may be able to help Terri:


I made some phone calls today and have the ULTIMATE PHONE CALL for registering a Complaint against Judge Greer. I can't reveal my sources but this is the phone number for a few pay grades above J. Greer.

Call the: Judicial Qualifications Commission at

#1-850-488-1581. I am complaining to them tomorrow that J. Greer isn't God, that he's been in the husband's corner since Day One, he doesn't care a wit about Terri's parents or her husband's attempt at medical neglect, and I'd like to know if Greer can be recalled or impeached.

HE SHOULD HAVE OR COULD HAVE HONORED GOV. BUSH'S REQUEST TO ASSIGN A GUARDIAN AD LITEM to represent Terri's interest instead of once again, taking the side of the husband. Judge Greer is from the Sixth Circuit Court, Pinellas County.

Oh, and ping everybody you can think of.

72 posted on 08/27/2003 5:06 PM EDT by floriduh voter


From summer:

"..do a separate thread asking people to call this phone number FV provided. This could get a guardian appointed if the judge is tossed off the case for BIAS."


Background:

8 Jeb Bush intervenes for Schindler-Schiavo -   WND | 8/26

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush has asked a judge to delay setting a date for removal of a feeding tube sustaining the life of a brain-disabled woman, Terri Schindler-Schiavo.

In a letter, Bush asked Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge George W. Greer yesterday to keep her alive until a court-appointed guardian can "independently investigate the circumstances of this case and provide the court with an unbiased view that considers the best interests of Mrs. Schiavo."


8 From JEB to FR: Full text of Gov Bush's letter to Judge Greer re: Terri Schiavo. Email from Gov Bush to summer, for FR | 8/27

 ----- Original Message -----
From: [Governor Bush's office]
To: [summer's email]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 8:06 AM
Subject: Letter regarding Terri Schiavo

> August 26, 2003

> The Honorable George W. Greer
> Judge, Sixth Judicial Circuit
> 315 Court Street, Room 484
> Clearwater, Florida 33756

Dear Judge Greer:

> I appreciate the challenging legal and ethical issues before you in the case > of Terri Schiavo. As I have expressed over the course of the past several > weeks, our system of government has committed these decisions to the > judicial branch, and we must respect that process. Consistent with this > principle, I normally would not address a letter to a judge in a pending > legal proceeding. However, my office has received over 27,000 emails > reflecting understandable concern for the well being of Terri Schiavo. > Given that there is no procedural avenue available for these views to be > expressed to you in the normal course of the proceedings, I feel compelled > to write in the hopes that you will give serious consideration to > re-appointment of a guardian ad litem for Mrs. Schiavo before permitting the > removal of her feeding tube or other actions calculated to end her life.

> This case represents the disturbing result of a severe family disagreement > in extremely trying circumstances. Emotions are high, accusations abound, > and at the heart of this public and private maelstrom is a young woman > incapable of speaking for herself.

> I am disturbed by new rumors about the guardian's actions related to the > current care of Mrs. Schiavo. It has come to my attention that Mrs. Schiavo > has contracted a life threatening illness, and that she may be denied > appropriate treatment. If true, this indicates a decision by her caregivers > to initiate an "exit protocol" that may include withholding treatment from > Mrs. Schiavo until her death, which would render this Court's ultimate > decision moot. While the issue of Mrs. Schiavo's care is still before the > Court, I urge you to ensure that no act of omission or commission be allowed > to adversely affect Mrs. Schiavo's health before the September 11th hearing > you have set. No one involved should be permitted to circumvent due process > or the Court's authority in order to achieve personal objectives in this > case.

> Even discounting these rumors, there are a number of factual disputes > regarding Mrs. Schiavo's medical condition, past and current care and > therapy, and her prognosis. Given the contradictory positions of her > guardian and other family members, I respectfully ask that you re-appoint a > qualified guardian ad litem to independently investigate the circumstances > of this case, and provide the Court an unbiased view that considers only the > best interests of Mrs. Schiavo.

> It is a fine balance between Mrs. Schiavo's right to privacy and her right > to life, both of which are co-equal in our Constitution. To err on one side > is to prolong her existence, perhaps against her wishes, and continue the > debate. To err on the other is an irrevocable act that affords no > remediation. I respectfully ask that you give Mrs. Schiavo's family the > opportunity to present any new evidence as to her wishes. Evidence as to > her wishes should be reweighed as often as necessary to take into account > the effect of any new evidence, that is, to determine whether "clear and > convincing evidence" still exists that Mrs. Schiavo would now choose > withdrawal of life-prolonging procedures. While this process may delay the > surrogate's exercise of Mrs. Schiavo's privacy rights, it is necessary to > avoid denying her right to life. I urge you to err on the side of > conservative judgment to ensure that all facts can be uncovered and > considered before her life is terminated.

> I appreciate your compassion for Mrs. Schiavo's plight, and that of the > family members locked in dispute in these tragic circumstances. In light of > the ongoing contention related to so many issues in this case, I hope you > will consider appointing a guardian ad litem to ensure that the ultimate > decision is based on facts presented clearly, unclouded and uncolored by > personal interests of litigants.

> Sincerely,

> Jeb Bush

> cc: Patricia Fields Anderson, Esq.
> George J. Felos, Esq.


(WND article excerpts, cont.:) "On Friday, the Florida Supreme Court refused to intervene in the case, clearing the way for a Sept. 11 hearing in which Greer would set a date for removal of the feeding tube.

Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler of Gulf Port, Fla., have been locked in a decade-long legal battle with their son-in-law over the care and custody of their daughter, who suffered massive brain damage when she collapsed at her home 13 years ago under unexplained circumstances at the age of 26.

***The bitter dispute over Terri's lack of care became a major euthanasia battle five years ago when her husband Michael Schiavo petitioned the court for permission to have her feeding tube removed, claiming she is in a persistent vegetative state and would not want to be kept alive "artificially." The Schindlers and a number of doctors and therapists believe she could be rehabilitated, but the courts have consistently sided with Schiavo and his lawyer, right-to-die advocate George Felos.

~~~~

The article is on CNSNews.com.

Florida Judge Rejects Governor's Bid to Help Terri Schiavo
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Congressional Bureau Chief
August 27, 2003

Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - Florida Circuit Judge George Greer Tuesday rejected a plea from Governor Jeb Bush to appoint a guardian ad litem to represent the best interests of Terri Schindler Schiavo, a 39-year-old disabled woman who suffered a brain injury in 1990 under questionable circumstances. Bush had intervened Monday after receiving 27,000 email messages asking for his help on Terri's behalf.

"I read [Gov. Bush's letter] because it came from the governor and I respect his position," Greer told the Tampa Tribune. "Beyond that, it is going in the file."

As CNSNews.com previously reported, Bush wrote Greer Monday asking him not to remove the disabled woman's feeding tube until a new guardian ad litem could "independently investigate" her condition. In the letter, Bush referenced the "fine balance between Mrs. Schiavo's right to privacy and her right to life," which Bush noted are co-equal under the Constitution.

"To err on one side is to prolong her existence, perhaps against her wishes and to continue the debate," Bush wrote. "To err on the other is an irrevocable act that affords no remediation."

But Greer told the Associated Press that he no longer has a choice in the matter.

"Frankly, I think I'm operating under a mandate from the 2nd District Court of Appeals," Greer said, "and frankly I don't think I can stray from that mandate."

In that same interview, however, the judge contradicted his own assessment of the limitation on his authority by stating that he was "not inclined" to appoint a guardian ad litem.

Michael Schiavo called Gov. Bush's intervention on behalf of Terri "crazy."

"The governor has deliberately twisted the facts in this case in an apparent effort to kowtow to his right-to-life political supporters," Schiavo told Tampa Tribune reporter David Sommer. "This has nothing to do with him. He should stay out of it."

Schiavo - who, for five years, has been seeking judicial approval to end his wife's life by denying her nutrition and hydration - also accused Terri's parents of manipulating their Catholic faith to keep their daughter alive.

"I believe in God and so did (?) Terri," Schiavo said, speaking of his still living wife in the past tense, "but they are out to push it on people... suddenly they are on a religious kick."

Judge refuses motion for hearing to set 'death date'

Greer also denied a motion Tuesday to hold an immediate hearing to set a date for the removal of Terri's nutrition and hydration tube. The hearing will be held, as previously announced, on Sept. 11. At that hearing, Greer will also rule on whether Schiavo may legally prohibit Terri's priest from visiting her.

Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, had also petitioned the court Monday to prohibit doctors from caring for Terri's current fever, labored breathing, vomiting, diarrhea and a "substantial infection."

"Given the imminence of the ward's death, further treatment (other than comfort care) for the ward's infection and other medical problems is unnecessary, unwarranted, inappropriate and futile," Felos said in an emergency motion, adding that Terri, "should be put back in hospice and receive comfort care and die in a peaceful setting."

Greer denied that motion, as well.

55 posted on 08/27/2003 5:29 PM EDT by yhwhsman ("Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small..." -Sir Winston Churchill)


Michael Schiavo is using "privacy" as an excuse for denying Terri every contact from the outside world, even flowers. "One sign of the case's nastiness is the Schindlers' complaint that Schiavo limits their visits with their daughter. They also say he has refused to allow doctors to examine her, refused her antibiotics and needed dental work, refused to replace a broken wheelchair so she could be taken outdoors and refused the delivery of flowers from a friend to her room on her birthday."

"Her teeth are fine; she doesn't eat," Michael Schiavo said. "Why take her to a gynecologist? She was supposed to die months ago. I don't want her room filled with flowers from strangers or right-to-life activists. Even though she is vegetative she has a right to privacy."

17 posted on 08/27/2003 10:14 AM EDT by I still care

***

I thought Gov Bush very eloquently made his case here, in this part:

To err on one side is to prolong her existence, perhaps against her wishes, and continue the debate. To err on the other is an irrevocable act that affords no remediation.

18 posted on 08/27/2003 10:14 AM EDT by summer


***

..this judge is going to look really bad if this part is ignored by the judge:

Even discounting these rumors, there are a number of factual disputes > regarding Mrs. Schiavo's medical condition, past and current care and > therapy, and her prognosis. Given the contradictory positions of her > guardian and other family members

21 posted on 08/27/2003 10:17 AM EDT by summer

***

HE SHOULD HAVE OR COULD HAVE HONORED GOV. BUSH'S REQUEST TO ASSIGN A GUARDIAN AD LITEM to represent Terri's interest instead of once again, taking the side of the husband. Judge Greer is from the Sixth Circuit Court, Pinellas County.

That is one thing that floors me .. This Judge should have long ago appointed an independent Guardian Ad Litem and not left her husband as her sole guardian .. especially since there are questions about her husband with abuse and the fractured bones that were reveled in xrays of Terry.

Everything I have read .. this Judge seems hell bent on having her killed

73 posted on 08/28/2003 2:45 AM EDT by Mo1 (http://www.favewavs.com/wavs/cartoons/spdemocrats.wav)

***

I know that Mr. Schiavo has tried to ban Terri's mother and family and priest from seeing her.

But, I don't know how a court could prevent doctors from ordering therapy, speach therapy (which is often actually swallowing therapy) and most especially oral nutrition.

27 posted on 08/26/2003 7:34 PM EDT by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)

***

Judge Greer has been with the husband since day one. A guardian ad litem would have been fair for Terri and her parents. Her parents love her but they are treated as the enemy. I'm ashamed this is happening in Pinellas County.

31 posted on 08/26/2003 7:41 PM EDT by floriduh voter


Judge Greer will not appoint a guardian ad litem. I have phone numbers from the phone book for the Clearwater Courthouse and all the guardianship phone numbers. He husband held a presser today and was very flippant about Jeb's letter and called the emailers a "bunch of right to lifers."

Hubby is looking a little nervous but with a pal like Judge Greer who is no Judge Moore, Terri has until the September 11 hearing to decide the date her starvation begins.

Here are the phone numbers: courthouse - 727-464-3000, guardianship numbers: 727-582-7563, 727-582-7771, and 727-464-8700. We can at least call as friends of Terri and voice our concerns.

25 posted on 08/26/2003 7:34 PM EDT by floriduh voter


Freepers, please call the Juducial Qualification Commission regarding Judge Greer:  1-850-488-1581.

***

Contact friends, thank those have been fighting on Terri's behalf, including Glenn Beck, Lars Larson, CNS News.com, WND, and Bill O'Reilly.

*** Terri Schindler Schiavo's website - background and news updates: www.terrisfight.org ***

8 Terri Schiavo's website Media Contacts

Governor Jeb Bush (R)
Office of The Governor
Florida Capitol Building, PL-05
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001
(850) 488-7146
(850) 488-4441
jeb.bush@myflorida.com

The Honorable(?) George W. Greer
6th Judicial Circuit
315 Court Street, Room 484
Clearwater, FL 33756
(727) 464-3933
ggreer@co.pinellas.fl.us

Attorney General Charlie Crist
Office of Attorney General
State of Florida
The Capitol
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1050
(850) 487-1963
Fax: (850) 487-2564
ag@oag.state.fl.us



TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: ada; california; catholiclist; constitution; deathbystarvation; euthanasia; felony; felos; floridasuncoast; floridian; frontpage; governor; greer; hemlocksociety; hospice; legalmurder; schiavo; schindler; suncoast; suncoasthospice; suncoastsoftware; terri; terrischiavo
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To: floriduh voter
I have been a "registered" Republican since 1970. After 33 years, I can tell you that the GOP won't do "diddly squat" about anything relating to moral issues. The GOP is interested only in economic matters and related foreign policy concerns. Sometimes the GOP gives a little lip service to its social conservatives to hold their needed votes before presidential elections, but never any real meat and potatoes. You won't find the GOP helping out Terri.
2,201 posted on 09/08/2003 1:52:47 PM PDT by Theodore R.
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To: trustandobey
What's the point of all the "bumps"? Just showing your despair and sense of hopelessness, I gather. I know how you feel.
2,202 posted on 09/08/2003 1:54:47 PM PDT by Theodore R.
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To: Theodore R.
Exactly! And it did get it on the main page for a few minutes.
2,203 posted on 09/08/2003 1:58:38 PM PDT by trustandobey (ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS)
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To: trustandobey
.
2,204 posted on 09/08/2003 2:00:56 PM PDT by Pegita ('Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take Him at His word ...)
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To: windchime
his Medicaid fraud section focused on patients suspected of milking the system.

Such individual cases pale in comparison to the hundreds of millions of dollars lost to corporate Medicaid fraud each year.

Glad they're going after the corporations.

2,205 posted on 09/08/2003 2:45:18 PM PDT by syriacus ( Prankin' Al Franken says---My letter to Ashcroft was not a lie...it was a prank. 9/7/03)
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To: trustandobey
Boy! I haven't seen that much bumping since the 70s! ;-)
2,206 posted on 09/08/2003 2:55:50 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: kimmie7; All
Have you all seen the motion to disqualify Judge Greer on Terri's site? It's a .pdf file. I'll try to post the content here later, but if you want to see it now (and it's GOOD) go to http://www.terrisfight.org/downloads/Motion%20to%20Disqualify%20090503.pdf
2,207 posted on 09/08/2003 2:58:25 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: syriacus
Me too!
2,208 posted on 09/08/2003 2:59:34 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: trustandobey
How about the hustle?! Let's hustle up and save Terri. Pray, call, e-mail, and all the rest!
2,209 posted on 09/08/2003 3:00:32 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: kimmie7
Or the funky chicken?! In my opinion, the members of the mean team are funky chickens...
2,210 posted on 09/08/2003 3:01:34 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: kimmie7
Or the mashed potatoe! I'll bet poor Terri would love some mashed potatoes...but her oh-so-kind (/sarcasm> hubby won't let them even try!
2,211 posted on 09/08/2003 3:03:20 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: syriacus
I was unfamiliar with the word "burking" until now. It came up while I was doing some searches

tr.v. burked, burk·ing, burkes To suppress or extinguish quietly; stifle: burked the investigation by failing to reappoint the commission.

Article on the origin of the word burking (burkeing)

The First "Merchandise"

Another of Hare’s lodgers, Joseph the Miller, fell ill not many days later.  Joseph owed no money to Hare and was not as seriously ill as Donald had been, but Hare and Burke discussed the situation and decided, with no medical expertise whatsoever, that Joseph was going to die, and was in pain, and they decided to put him out of his misery.

The two, showing great sympathy for Joseph’s discomfort, gave the sick man glasses of whisky until Joseph fell unconscious.  Then one of the men held Joseph’s nose and mouth shut while the other spread himself across the victim’s prone body, pining the arms and preventing any struggle.

Joseph never regained consciousness and was soon on Knox’s doorstep.  Inadvertently, Burke and Hare had stumbled onto a foolproof method of murder with Joseph: it appeared that the victim had died from illness or drunkenness and there were no incriminating marks.  They would repeat the process frequently over the next 11 months.


2,212 posted on 09/08/2003 3:08:46 PM PDT by syriacus ( Prankin' Al Franken says---My letter to Ashcroft was not a lie...it was a prank. 9/7/03)
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To: syriacus
Blood Money By Brennen Jensen
If you could take a time-machine trip back to late-1880s Baltimore, you might hear the above ballad sung while strolling the city's cobblestone streets. The macabre ditty recounts a brutal murder that was Baltimore's--if not the country's--only case of "burking."

The American Heritage Dictionary offers three definitions for the verb "burke," including "to suppress or extinguish quietly" and "to avoid; disregard." But it's the final definition that's relevant here: "To execute by suffocation so as to leave the body intact and suitable for dissection." We owe the term to one William Burke, an Irish-born grave robber who tired of digging up corpses--and started producing them instead. He's thought to have killed 32 people in Edinburgh, Scotland, in the 1820s, plying victims with liquor and then suffocating them. The warm corpses were trucked down to the local dissection room and turned into cold cash. (Anatomical study was a burgeoning field then and test subjects were bought on a cash-on-the-coffin basis.)

Baltimore's burkers were less subtle men, substituting bludgeoning and stabbing for strangulation, but their motivation was the same as that of their forebear. In 1886 they killed Emily Brown and sold her corpse to the University of Maryland School of Medicine for $15. [snip]

The cold-blooded, cash-driven crime shocked the city ("Burking in Baltimore" blared a front-page headline in The Sun on Dec. 13, 1886). Every Baltimorean who went missing was assumed to have been burked. H.L. Mencken was a child at the time and recalls the burking hysteria in his autobiography Happy Days--writing (joshingly) that the University of Maryland med school "swarmed with medical students who never had enough cadavers to supply their hellish orgies." Mencken reports that the more fearful of his west-side neighbors wouldn't even walk past the school for fear of being yanked in and opened up. In actuality the Brown murder helped speed the enactment of laws that put the kibosh on the cash-for-cadavers trade. [snip]


2,213 posted on 09/08/2003 3:17:58 PM PDT by syriacus ( Prankin' Al Franken says---My letter to Ashcroft was not a lie...it was a prank. 9/7/03)
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To: syriacus
Very interesting read. Thanks.
2,214 posted on 09/08/2003 3:38:17 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: kimmie7
You're welcome, Kimmie.

Hope you are healing well.

The articles on "Burking" are interesting to me, too. 50 years ago, we would have looked in horror at those 19th Century people who made money out of "murdering for medical purposes." We passed laws to protect vulnerable people, but now those laws are being eroded.

From post 2213:
The macabre ditty recounts a brutal murder that was Baltimore's--if not the country's--only case of "burking."

Actually, Dr. Michael Baden thought that there was another case of "Burking.

Baden recounts his role in Binion trial; Famed pathologist cited by both sides as key factor in gaining convictions in case

Simms still adamantly disputes Baden's take on the evidence. He says medical examiners in this country have reported only a handful of burking cases in the past 50 years.

"Burking is definitely controversial," Simms said. "The autopsy findings that could occur in burking are minimal to none, generally leaving few or no signs. ... In other words, it's a dangerous diagnosis to make."


2,215 posted on 09/08/2003 4:18:02 PM PDT by syriacus ( Prankin' Al Franken says---My letter to Ashcroft was not a lie...it was a prank. 9/7/03)
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To: Theodore R.
You are probably right about the GOP. I'd been flamed here and felt like stating clearly that I've done all I could to help Terri's fight.

It's up to the man upstairs it appears. You did your part too.

2,216 posted on 09/08/2003 4:58:42 PM PDT by floriduh voter (http://www.conservative-spirit.org/)
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To: floriduh voter
What do you mean by being "flamed" on the forum? I assume you mean that some "moderates" on Free Republic have attacked you unjustly for standing up for Terri.

I have been "flamed" too many times on other posts. I have even been accused of being a closet Democrat by some of the GOP regulars, who support the party on every issue!

We have done all we could, and ultimately what we have done for Terri is nothing. If there was a Nazi Germany, I sometimes feel like there is now a "Nazi Florida," and I know that epithet is unfair too.

I also learned from the Terri fight that many others are being starved to death nationwide. In my naivete, I simply was unaware of such starvation, among people of ALL AGES.

And I still say, it's all about the money!!!!
2,217 posted on 09/08/2003 5:03:53 PM PDT by Theodore R.
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To: floriduh voter
You can't back down because you get flamed. I've been flamed recently, but I chalk it up to difference of opinion and go on.

We've all been doing what we honestly, peacefully and legally could. It's frustrating, especially to those of us who are not in that area.

For instance, you and I have differing opinions on some things. That doesn't mean one or both of us should cease working for the same cause. That's the beauty of FR. Some of us are action oriented, some of us are research oriented, some of us are wonderful at building moral, some of us are wonderful at legalities. Different colored threads, woven together into a beautiful tapestry that reads "Save Terri Schiavo"

There's no need to bicker and spat. If someone posts something I don't like or agree with, or feel is over the top I try very hard to look at it objectively. If I can make use of it, or if I was in the wrong I try very hard to do the right thing. If not, it goes into the circular file 13 in my brain. No biggie.

The point here is that we've ALL worked hard for the greater cause...creating a very public outcry against this injustice, supporting the Schindlers and their family and legal/PR team, and trying to educate people on what's happening in their own back yard (so to speak). JMHO

2,218 posted on 09/08/2003 5:30:23 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: All
I just received this:

There is a motion to disqualify Judge Greer. The information contained in that motion is legitmate. In the interest of not harming Terri's case should another judge be appointed, it is suggested that demonstrators act as peacefully and respectfully as possible.

This is a great Motion, folks, and hopefully will be ruled on in the Schindler's favor. Until we know something, please put your Operation Jell-O plans on hold.

I can certainly understand the concern. If you have any questions, please freepmail me.
2,219 posted on 09/08/2003 5:36:38 PM PDT by kimmie7 (Stand up, stand up for Jesus ye soldiers of the Cross! Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
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To: kimmie7
Good idea to keep the Jello demonstration on hold. With 9-11 coming up, the anthrax scare, we would be putting ourselves and the entire forum in jeopardy.

As for overlooking flames, yes - never let them stop you from doing what you set out to accomplish. Half the time those people are immature disruptors, & that's why I always check to see how long they've been registered.

2,220 posted on 09/08/2003 5:44:25 PM PDT by lakey (It's the Constitution, stupid!)
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