Alabama SC justices cave, order Ten Commandments removed

AP on Fox News ^ | 8-21-03 | AP on Fox News website

[rwfromkansas]

MONTGOMERY, Ala.

[lawdog]

The A.C. L.U. was founded by socialists, communists, and pacifists etc. Here's a fine example of one of their chapters "defending the liberties" of Americans...."The Myth of the Second Amendment". Go ahead and look it up. The article is posted on FR. These jackals are so intellectually dishonest, it's pathetic. Of course, once in a while they get one right just like a broken clock.

[general_re]

He didnt "restrict" anything, another Judge could do his thing, another office or court could do theirs.

There is only one Alabama Supreme Court, as far as I know, though. How about if the next president decides to erect a giant crescent moon, the traditional symbol of Islam, on the White House lawn - that would be okay with you? After all, "another office or court" could just put up something else in some other building, right?

Judge Moore's display does not involve any official edict, any establishment, any favoritism towards a particular sectarian group, nor any coercion or intimidation.

It does the minute he makes the platform exclusive to one point of view, which is exactly - exactly - what he did here. Why can't the damn atheists put their damn atom in the rotunda too? What on earth is Roy Moore so very terrified of, that he can't put his beliefs to the Pepsi Challenge without stacking the deck in his favor, without putting his thumb on the scale? Is the Judeo-Christian tradition so weak that, faced with a sculpture of an atom, thousands of formerly devout Christians will drop their Bibles and begin hypnotically gravitating towards it?

Please tell me it's not so, that the faith is not that thin and filmy. I don't believe it. Roy Moore apparently does, but I don't. Not for a minute. Putting an atom in the rotunda is not going to make me an atheist, and anyone who is converted by that sort of thing was never serious about their prior faith to begin with, IMO.

[Cinnamon Girl]

A federal judge had ruled the monument violates the constitution's ban on government establishment of religion

I can't believe how insane it sounds when the radio news announces "the 10 Commandments has been ordered to be removed from the court house." It's surreal.

[general_re]

How is he denying freedom to others? What freedoms do they have under the Constitution that prevents him from displaying the ten commandments?

Why can he display the tenets of his faith on public property, but others cannot?

Since FDR, the courts have been loaded with liberal judges and they have destroyed any values this nation was founded on by twisting words to thier "interpretation"

You should read the district court opinion and the appellate opinion in this case - watch for how Judge Moore tries to define the word "religion" to basically mean "Christianity, and nothing else". Kind of hard for us to complain about judges twisting the Constitution to fit their preferred interpretation when we've got the Roy Moore's of the world polluting our own bed...

[WOSG]

"How about if the next president decides to erect a giant crescent moon, the traditional symbol of Islam, on the White House lawn - that would be okay with you?"

Whether it is "okay" with me or not, such an act is CERTAINLY CONSTITUTIONAL! If you dont like how certain public official use their freedom of expression, you can vote them out. I for one would have no problem with, say a President Joe Leiberman, putting out Hannukah lights instead of a White House Christmas tree. No problem.

What I do have a problem with is the fascistic idea that all public expressions of religious sentiment are out of bounds simply because they (by necessity) fail to be all-inclusive. *Any* expression fails to be all-inclusive, so this is a recipe for supressing *any* religious sentiment in public. That is repressive, anti-freedom and and anti-religious bigotry.


"What on earth is Roy Moore so very terrified of, that he can't put his beliefs to the Pepsi Challenge without stacking the deck in his favor, without putting his thumb on the scale?Please tell me it's not so, that the faith is not that thin and filmy. I don't believe it. "

You can turn that around. Do you really think this mere stone slab is going to somehow forcible convert the state of Alabama into Judge Moore's 'true' religion? You think it has such amazing powers that it becomes an 'establishment' of it? You really think to build up one thing (Moses) somehow degrades anything not related to Judeo-Christian heritage. What a fragile and easily offended ego it would take to belive that!

No of course not. It's just an innocuous display. It really doesnt matter one way or the other to the beliefs of anyone and, and will not change minds. Of course this is not about what people believe deep down, it's just a public expression, a testimonial of what people (some people) *already* believe and respect.

If anything, it's the nutty ACLU who falsely make this stone monument to be more than it really is.

" Why can't the damn atheists put their damn atom in the rotunda too? "

They *can*, if the officials managing it let them. You find a sponsor for it, go ahead. It's fine. IN fact you find such stuff in some world's fairs. ... But dont go around pretending like the bogus ACLU-types here that there is a Constitutional aborgation simply because there wasnt 'equal time' or "equal space" here. You have to hang on to the worst of Judicial activist bogus logic to reach that point (hey it didnt stop the Carter appointed Judge Myron, but that doesnt make him right).

[ClancyJ]

No - not arrogant at all - just believers in the Bible. We have not found a lie told to us yet there.

How very sad when you experience the death of a loved one.

Surprising that you don't see the artistic creations in life here. How come there are millions of insects - each created uniquely for its needs - why not just 3 or 4 kinds in bland colors?

What about the various animals of the world - each so different, each endowed with ways to protect itself? What about the vibrant colors of birds, animals, insects, flowers? Why were they not just bland simple designs - why so elaborate?

What about the human body, the birth process? How could accident possibly create something so magnificient?

IMHO there had to be a creator and one that showed His handiwork by the artistic designs in the creations. Sure some things evolved, some things were set in motion to develop. Same as a computer programmer sets up the program for a job. The programmer does not actually do the job, he provides the plans, the process and fine tunes the creation. Yet, without the programmer, the job would not be done.

Such a shame that the Creator does not even get credit for His creations. No - the world is so simplified that it was merely created by accident, a big bang, or years of evolution.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

[general_re]

I need to take a break from this subject, I think - I am now heartily sick of Roy Moore and his antics ;)

Whether it is "okay" with me or not, such an act is CERTAINLY CONSTITUTIONAL!

What then, to your thinking, does the establishment clause mean, exactly?

No of course not. It's just an innocuous display.

If it's just an innocuous display, what's the big deal about taking it down? Why are people so agitated about it, praying in front of it, and being dragged out by the police at the thought that it might be removed?

Sorry, don't buy it. The display clearly has religious significance to many people, making it more than just an innocuous display. It's an article of a particular faith, promoted over and above all other faiths by an agent of the state of Alabama, which is impermissible under current law. Roy can try to change the law if he doesn't like it, but that's how it stands right now.

They *can*, if the officials managing it let them.

Oh, good. I can enjoy the same sort of freedom in the public square that Roy Moore does. So long as Roy Moore is gracious enough to let me, which he won't.

No, thanks. The hound that guards the henhouse isn't supposed to develop a taste for chicken....

[ClancyJ]

No, I will not rethink that theory. Muslims do not worship God, they worship Allah.

There are many writings that go into detail explaining the differences. I am not that versed in the Muslim religion.

If they worship the same god, why is it that so many refuse God and turn to being Muslim? Why?

The Muslim religion appeals to many who seek violence and hate. This is why it is so prevalent in the prisons. There is a justification for the violence that they enjoy.

The practices of the religion again do not show love - they show hate and feed hate. There is nothing in that that would appeal to me.

I am not on a high horse. I have no qualms about the history of Christianity. Yet that means nothing - I do not judge the history of Christianity to see if I believe or not.

[First Amendment]

We need to restore the understanding of the 1st Amendment awa from this anti-religious gobbledegook that the ACLU has forced down our throats and back to an understanding of true religious toleration and mutual *acceptance* of voluntary religious sentiment.

(I missed this latest installment of the 10 Commandments saga, but I thought this would interest you, especially in the light of your statement above.)

A good friend works for US Cellular, he is assistant manager in a small town in Northern California. Last year (and previous years) the store was decorated with a Christmas tree at the appropriate time of year. New edict from management - NO CHRISTMAS TREES! Why? They might offend someone. This is an example of how the government suppresses religious freedom. Obviously the gov't isn't telling US Cellular to omit Christmas trees, but they are afraid of lawsuits, the ACLU, and the generally oppressive atmosphere towards any religious expression.

[fieldmarshaldj]

"This is part of the megalomaniac's plan. He intends to ride this into the governor's mansion."

Good heavens, I thought this was the Ah-nold Schwarzenbuffet thread. Roy Moore ought to be Rehnquist's successor and the rest of the formerly-respected trash on the AL Supremes ought to resign.

[Technogeeb]

There are many writings that go into detail explaining the differences. I am not that versed in the Muslim religion.

I am. And I can say with certainty that you're correct; Islam's Allah and the Judeo-Christian Deity are not even remotely the same. Allah was worshipped long before the invention of Islam by Mohammet; it was one of the gods worshipped in the Kaaba (itself a temple with a pantheon of 360 different gods before being rehabilitated for use by Islam). Culturally, there were absolutely no links whatsoever with this particular god and the God of Israel until Mohammet came along and borrowed (and incompetently corrupted) several stories from local Jews (and heretical Christians) in the area in creating the Quoran. He chose Allah to be his new "monotheistic" deity for Islam probably because it was his family's personal god, and as a child he had attended to that particular idol (his grandfather was a custodian of the Kaaba in Mohammet's youth).

Another misstatement often told by the unification camp is that "Allah" is just the Arabic name for God. It is not (that would be Ilah, a word almost never used since the time of Mohammet because of the cultural domination of Islam). Some suggest that "allah" was just a corrupted version of "al-ilah", but even the Mohammedans will deny that (and instead instead that "Allah" is a proper name, not a generic one like the English "God"). But even if it were true, the etymology would once again prove no historical connection between the two, since the "al-ilah" has the mesopotamian/sumerian LIL/IL (enlil, and later "allil") as a root, rather than the semitic EL of Judaism.

The only people I have ever seen who suggest the "it's the same God" are those either completely lacking in any archeological history of the region, or those completely lacking in any knowledge of Islam (a quick read of any of the Suras dealing with "biblical" figures rather quickly shows that any supposed commonality between the religions is laughable. Not only can the Quran not stand when compared to the bible; it can't even stand on it's own merit).

[Brandon]

This is an example of how the government suppresses religious freedom.

Uh, no. It's an example of a private property owner deciding what sort of decorations to put on its property.

[Impy]

I thrilled to see someone finally stand up to the Supreme Court.

[nathanbedford]

Please remove me from your ping lists

Thank You.

[Edmund Burke]

Perhaps the Alabama House of Representatives could vote to withdraw from the United States. This would send a pretty strong message.

[Zavien Doombringer]

missyme
Since Jul 3, 2003

[Zavien Doombringer]

Wow, I can't believe you forgot the ACLU

[Zavien Doombringer]

..."Love your neighbor as yourself, Do unto others as you would want them to do to you..."

[Happy2BMe]

"Wow, I can't believe you forgot the ACLU."

The ACLU (GOD-HATERS OF AMERICA) . . .

The TEN COMMANDMENTS - Who Wants Them Gone The Most (And Why"

[fieldmarshaldj]

Done.