Posted on 08/13/2003 8:09:40 AM PDT by Monitor
MILWAUKEE -- Just a week after the Episcopal Church approved an openly gay bishop and let individual churches decide whether to bless same-sex unions, the nation's largest Lutheran denomination convened Monday to pick up a similar debate.
For the 5.1 million-member Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the discussion of homosexual marriage and openly gay pastors has its own unique twists and timeline. Homosexuals already may become pastors if they agree to remain celibate. And individual churches may bless same-sex unions despite a non-binding statement made a decade ago by the church's 66 bishops condemning such ceremonies.
The Evangelical Lutherans' discussion began two years ago when the church commissioned a task force to study homosexuality from scriptural, theological and scientific points of view. Although the study is due in 2005, an interim report is to be presented Friday. Hearings on the matter begin Tuesday.
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
NIV Matthew 4:18-19
18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
19. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."NIV Matthew 8:14
14. When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.NIV Matthew 10:1-2
1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;NIV Matthew 14:28-31
28. "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"NIV Matthew 15:13-16
13. He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15. Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16. "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Sure am, via my Grandparents - both sides no less.
But I'd make a better Mexican regarding food. I do love lefsa, and have even eaten lutefiske recently at Sons Of Norway - sure is different than when Dad soaked it & Mom cooked it.
I love my Norwegian heritage
Me too, with emphasis on heritage - especially the work ethic, church planting & such, of the immigrants who settled in my neck of the midWest.
My wife makes certain I have Norske t-shirts (like Made in America with Norwegian parts etc). She also gets books such as "We Die Alone" a true story of survival North of the Artic Circle during WWII - an unbelievable but true experience, it is a must read for folks like us.
I was baptised & confirmed in the old ELC before the merger with the German branch.
I have read enough from Martin Luther to dare claim I am more "Lutheran" than the Lutheran's I know - gutsy huh! I like to think Luther would be at home pastoring the church I attend.
Dahlseide was my family name before America. Uffda! better stop this has gotten too long.
The Holy Spirit works in the believer whether by means of pastor/bishop/evangelist/... or prayer or meditation or study or .... A believer is to test the spirit/teaching whether it be from the Holy Spirit, or from a false spirit, by the yard stick of the Scriptures.
I have noticed that many folks have responded to Catholic theology concerning Scripture, Authority of Bishops/Pope/Apostolic succession, the One True Church teaching, & more. I'll not continue that other than to say, as far as our discussion regarding moral authority is concerned, since you referred to Bishops/Pope as that authority, I referred to the individual believer. To me the question meant "who determines?", I answered, among men, the believer, in the sense that each believer is responsible for his own understanding of morality. I said "among men", to highlight personal responsibility, not as you might interpret it, "moral relativism". Neither of us would claim our understanding, regardless of the source, contradicted God.
There is an old saying I am a sinner saved by grace, saved by the blood of the Lamb. To me that means, and here many Christians disagree including you from one of your responses, if one is saved one is really saved leading to another old saying "once saved always saved". How else could it be if the source of our salvation is the grace of God, the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Note I did not use ? as punctuation).
Well, TheGeezer, you said we were close on one of my last comments in a previous post. I'll take that in a positive vein.
Be well, my best to you & yours.
On this we cannot agree. Even St. Paul did not consider himself irrevocably saved since he expressed concern that even he could lose the prize. He wrote that he struggled for it, and, as I pointed out in one post, had to continuously subdue his physical body with mortifications so he would not lose the prize, even though he had preached it to others.
With backsliding, salvation may be lost, unfortunately. Regards.
Wellll, that's debatable...
(Simon was already known as 'Peter' BEFORE these verses came along.....)
The gospels were written after Peter was renamed Rock (Greek "Petros" or Arabic "Kepha") by Jesus. Naturally, the authors of the Gospels would refer to Peter by his new God-given name as they wrote the Gospels.
The translation of the Bible you are using is slightly inaccurate:
Mt 16:18. "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
is better rendered
Mt 16:18 "18. And I tell you that you are Rock, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
In the most ancient Greek manuscripts of the Gospel Jesus calls Simon Petros (the Greek word for rock). It is quite clear that the reference to what His church will be built upon is that Rock...Peter...the first pope.
God is indeed the Rock of the Old Testament, and the typology of the Bible refers repeatedly to Jesus, as well, as a Rock. But the references to God as Rock do not contradict anything having to do with Jesus creating Petros from Simon (and vice-versa). You can throw as many uses of the word rock up as you wish, but none contradict Mt. 16:18.
And now YOU you know the Biblical position!
Regards.
Which church?
How did it recognize them as authoritative?
It is one thing to say that a canon existed, but a canon cannot be a canon unless it is defined to be so by an authority, like a church council. Individuals tend to be too sinful and make too many mistakes.
Regards.
The QE1 liturgy substantially lacked the sacramental priestly intent of ordination that the original liturgy contained and obtained, so any ordinations performed using the QE1 liturgy were both illicit and invalid. By the time the "catholic" revival restored the pre-Elizabethan liturgy, all validly ordained bishops that had not been killed or exiled by QE1 were dead and gone.
Apostolic succession was lost forever as a result. The proof is in the pudding, as it were: as a result of that loss, grievous and dangerous moral error has become a tenet of the ECUSA. Having abandoned the Holy Spirit, a church will eventually drift into error as a manifest result. If serious error in official doctrine develops, is any further proof of the loss of doctrinal authority needed?
Regards.
But Christ promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church, and if a church teaches error, that is evidence that the Holy Spirit is not with that church.
Regards.
No, it is not.
Isaiah 44:8does NOT contradict Mt. 16:18, because Jesus points out that Simon is a LITTLE rock, but the BIG ROCK is the fact that Peter did, indeed, recognize [words in blue]
8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
WHO Christ REALLY was, and upon THAT fact would the church be built.
NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
The Lutheran, the ELCA paper (www.thelutheran.com), editorialized for a moratorium on expelling congregations over this issue. There's been a movement by some congregations to cease support payment to the ELCA and a new organization, Word Alone (www.wordalone.org). I used to think quitting was the only option, but now I'm convinced we have to stand and fight. If it were just one church or congregation, quitting would be appropriate; we have to stand and fight.
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