![[img]](http://enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/17/church_zoom.jpg)
Kyla Ford and Eryn Robinson, both 7 and of Anderson Township, hold a sign in support of Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken at Lakeside Presbyterian Church Monday.
(Mike Simons photo)
| ZOOM |
Posted on 06/17/2003 5:27:26 PM PDT by HatSteel
| Kyla Ford and Eryn Robinson, both 7 and of Anderson Township, hold a sign in support of Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken at Lakeside Presbyterian Church Monday.
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FORT MITCHELL - The Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken was formally renounced by the Presbytery of Cincinnati on Monday for continuing to perform same-sex marriages.
The action, taken by a voting body made up of minister members and elder commissioners in the Presbytery, means the pastor of the Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church can no longer serve as a minister and loses his church membership.
The vote was 119-45, with four voters abstaining.
"I'm sad, and I'm disappointed," Van Kuiken said after the vote. "This is a sad day. This is an issue that is going to continue to stay at the surface of the Presbyterian Church."
Van Kuiken was unsure of his next action. He said he will take some time to re-evaluate what he will do. He is considering filing a complaint with the Synod of the Presbyterian Church USA, claiming his due process rights were violated because he had an appeal pending on an earlier rebuke.
"It's important for me to be true to myself and be true to what my beliefs are about God," he said.
Van Kuiken's case has been closely watched across the country as Presbyterians - who also ban gay clergy - and other faiths continue to debate the roles of gays and lesbians in the church.
In the denomination's first ecclesiastical trial on the issue, Van Kuiken was found guilty in April of marrying gays and lesbians. He was given a public rebuke and told not to do it again. He wed two women on May 17.
The voting body met at the Lakeside Presbyterian Church in Fort Mitchell after a vigil supporting Van Kuiken.
"I just think it was unavoidable," said Howard Smith, one of the voters in favor of the renunciation. "His actions made the action necessary by the Presbytery unless they want to totally disregard the (church) constitution."
A number of members of Mount Auburn Presbyterian attended Monday's vote and the vigil.
"I think it's a travesty what they're doing," said Terrell Lackey. "Being a gay man and a black man, too, I can't believe the world is still the way it is. Cincinnati is sad."
About one-third of the 280 members of the Mount Auburn church are gay.
This is the first time the Presbytery of Cincinnati has removed a minister for performing same-sex marriages, and possibly the first case in any Presbytery nationwide.
Presbyteries don't have to report such cases to the Presbyterian Church USA, but the organization isn't aware of others, said Laurie Griffith, manager of judicial process and social witness at the Presbyterian Church USA in Louisville.
Van Kuiken's rebuke in April was the lightest of possible punishments.
He also faces accusations, including blasphemy, from a California lawyer who filed the original complaints against him.
Van Kuiken could become a church member again, but he would have to restart the process if he wants to be a minister again, said the Rev. Melissa Bane Sevier, Presbytery moderator.
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E-mail auhde@enquirer.com
With all due respect, you are mistaken. I can provide at least one example of someone God hated.
Ready? Romans 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
(BTW, cool screen name)
I agree that the no-female elder position is easier to demostrate, and until a few years ago, it's the position I took. I also have problems with the idea of a female pastor......but that's another discussion.
If you want to know the truth of my 'change of heart' I'll tell you......and I expect I will get flamed by some who think they know all (not you, HatSteel.....you have been very polite as well).
We joined this church 5 years ago, not because we 'liked it,' but because we had been forced out of the Baptist church we had helped begin 18 years before, by the sins of the pastors (including blatant lies about us).....but that's another story as well. We felt the healing of God through the Holy Spirit every week as we sat and were ministered to, after years of being in ministry ourselves.
We came to this church as Baptists, and studied the Presbyterian doctrine carefully before joining, knowing the church had women elders, and having serious disagreements with infant baptism. In studying we came to understand the rationale behind both, based on Scripture, and still disagreed, but felt God's leading, through much prayer, to join.
My husband was asked to be a deacon two years ago, and a year ago, I was asked to be an elder.......still not being sure that Scripture backed that position up (because there is nothing specific in the Bible.....though there is MUCH about women being co-workers in Christ in the early church). I did not think I was qualified (I'm a music teacher/choir director), so I hesitated, and was asked to pray about it. The Elder board prayed about it. My husband and I spent a great deal of time in prayer about it (remember the we were coming from the position that we were not clear if it was Biblical, and I didn't really WANT to do it).
We both had clear direction that I should accept the nomination. CLEAR direction.
Since I have been on Session, it has been clear that it is where God wanted me to be (and interestingly we were sending a letter to Cincinnati expressing our strong position against this defiant pastor, and against homosexuality).
There will be those here who say I didn't hear God's voice, didn't pray the right way, am not a real Christian, or any number of other things because they are so sure they have the only correct interpretation of the entire body of Scripture. But I have been a believer for 45 years, and a member of churches all along that agreed with your position. And I know, without a doubt that it was the Holy Spirit's leading that I do this.
You may take my testimony for what it's worth.......but it's the truth. I understand why others draw the conclusions you've drawn, but my testimony, if believed, says there is another side to the issue that is also of the Lord.
And perhaps you are also drawing a conclusion based on a, b, c, and d, that doesn't add up to the position you THINK it adds up to.
The creation of Adam first, and the selection of men as his apostles doesn't logically lead to a position that women should not be leaders in their respective churches. The cultural factors involved with uneducated (and sometimes rowdy) women in the early church are also left out of your equation.
I believe in God given male leadership. That is without question. But I also know that God has given women gifts to be used for HIM that cannot be used by rigid, and sometimes thoughtless conclusions of certain individuals, from their own particular interpretation as to what the individual verses mean.
I have heard in the past, preachers beat women over the head with submission to their husbands based on a verse in Ephesians, while completely ignoring the man's responsibility to love as Christ loved the church in the same passage. It used to be the standard interpretaion of marriage among fundamentalist. The man was boss, the 'little woman' should obey him........and they based it on the 'bible.'
All I am saying is that it is wisest to interpret such verses carefully, knowing that you are finite, and don't know how God is working in other's lives.
You cannot possibly say I did not hear God's voice, so my discussion with you must be concluded.
I may not disagree with any thing else you've said, but you, by that statement, have concluded that YOUR wisdom is above God's, and there is no more for us to discuss.
In the New Testament Book of Acts, in chapter 18, mention is made of Aquila's wife Priscilla, and how both of them instructed Apollos in order to correct his doctrinal mistakes. She obviously appears to have instructed a man. Also, Paul makes mention of her in his letters. They may have been merely friends, but I think she had a leadership role in the early church. Priscilla has even been mentioned as one of the possible authors of the Book of Hebrews.
My feeling on women serving in the church as elders, minister, etc is this: while Paul did not seem to care for the idea, I don't think his comments on this matter were meant to carry the weight of scripture. I think they were his opinions and advice to the leaders of specific churches and dealt with potential problems the pastors may have had there with women as leaders. But, I could be wrong.
I'm a Presbyterian Church U.S.A. member myself, and my wife has served twice as an Elder, and has also voted against pro-homosexual agendas whenever they come up. That's more than can be said for some of the PC men from our church who voted the other way on the subjrct.
It is not wise to try to have prayerful, reasonable discussions with those who THINK they have all the answers, even when they clearly don't.
Scripture, and the leading of the Holy Spirit are my guide, Motherbear. My husband is a mature, and wise man who has been a church leader in an evangelical church for years. We prayed together about it, and knew clearly what God was leading US, as a couple who are ONE in Christ, to do.
When it comes to understanding what God leads us to do with our lives, YOU, fortunately, don't have a vote.
Discussion over.
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