FReep this FOX NEWS dot com POLL on abortion!!!

Fox News Dot Com ^ | 6/17/2003 | Fox News Dot Com Poll

[xrp]

Roe v. "Roe"

Should the 1973 Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion be overturned?

a. Yes, I support Norma McCorvey's efforts. (60%)

b. No, a woman has the right to choose. (36%)

c. Not sure (4%)

[hocndoc]

No, you do not understand me if you believe that one human being has the right to act to purposefully and electively kill another.

[Torie]

Go back and reread my posts. I don't agree that this is a Constitutional matter. I already said that. My goal is to beat you in the public square at the ballot box, if you go too far. I hope that helps.

[hocndoc]

""But, to support abortion at any time seems be the pivot point, not when.""


You are correct. Justice Taney said the same thing about slavery and citizenship of the Black men and women who were imported as slaves. It doesn't matter where they were or what the local laws were - could they become citizens? No, because Taney didn't believe that the Founding Fathers meant for slaves to be full persons.

As to the infringement of the right to life based on the decisions of the powerful, again, you are right. The pivot point is whether or not humans have the inalienable right to life and whether government is to protect that right or aide the killer. If the majority rules or if the powerful decide, or if it's for the common good or the greatest good for the greatest number, none of us - or at least none of our children in the future - are safe, born or not.

[MHGinTN]

The false notion that 'because killing the unborn has been made legal by the SCOTUS so it must be okay morally and ethically' I have no doubt has added to the promiscuity statistics. It has also added to the irresponsibility of males whose little head rule their big head. By removing the patina of 'all right to do it', the voluntary behaviors that bring the pregnancy consequences (to females AND males) will weigh more heavily on the side of 'responsibility for person behavior'.

[hocndoc]

If you require purposeful movement and reporting of the meaning and memory of the movement, you're moving past 3 years old for most human beings to qualify as sentient.

The neuromuscular and biochemical response to pain can measured at 7 to 10 weeks. The heart rate speeds up, the neurochemicals that you and I produce in response to pain are released at this time. By 20 weeks, all the systems and some of the connections used by the post-natal human to register and act in response to pain are present in the brain.
http://www.care.org.uk/resource/pub/fs/intro.htm#15

[bjcintennessee]

FReeped. Currently - Yes, 62%; No, 34%; Not Sure, 4%

[hocndoc]

Slavery, murder, theft all continue. That does not justify the government protecting and aiding the slaver, the murderer or the thief.

The women who resorted to back alley abortions or used coathangers did not have the access to current contraception or the knowledge that we have about the nature of the child before birth.

Besides, have you seen the evidence that women and men are able to control themselves when abortion becomes difficult and/or illegal? See the pdf. article, "Abortion as Insurance" at
http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/research/workshops/wae/levine_staiger.pdf?ID=337

See pages 25 and 26.

[hocndoc]

I'm not running for office or trying to be appointed to an office that comes under the "advise and consent" clause.

But, I think I can stand the scrutiny.

[hocndoc]

What is subjective about the scientific, taxonomical definition of a human?

[hocndoc]

But, can you make a logical argument at the ballot box or in a court of law (where this decision was made 30 years ago) for your definition of "sentience" as the demarcation point for legal vs. illegal purposeful and elective killing of human beings?

[hocndoc]

Here are some more links having to do with the perception of pain and neurological development of the human during pre-natal development (I knew I had them, since I testified for the Fetal Pain Act at the Texas House State Affairs Committee last month):

http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/comm53.asp

""Fitzgerald has reviewed the biological development of the fetus and examined the possibility of fetal pain at each stage of development. The impression that a fetus experiences sensation is apparent at 7.5 weeks gestation when reflex responses to somatic stimuli begin. At this point touching the peri-oral region results in a contralateral bending of the head. The palms of the hands become sensitive to stroking at 10.5 weeks and the rest of the body and hindlimbs become sensitive at approximately 13.5 weeks. Shortly after the development of sensitivity, repeated skin stimulation results in hyperexcitability and a generalized movement of all limbs. This hyperexcitability has been interpreted as evidence for the presence of a functional pain system, reflecting an immature but intact pain response with early hypersensitivity to stimulation (14).""

(Although, since the definition of pain is clinically differentiated from the definition of stress response, these reactions are not called "pain" responses until later in gestation. But, it looks like the embryo or fetus is reacting as you or I would to pain.)

http://www.med.ic.ac.uk/divisions/58/perinatal_stress.asp
""Fetal stress responses
We have now completed our first trial of giving the opiate fentanyl to the fetus. These are the first experiments to determine how to give pain relief to the fetus in a safe and effective way. At the doses used it ablated the blood flow redistribution to the brain, and the endorphin response but not the cortisol response.

We are continuing to characterise how the fetus responds to therapeutic but possibly painful invasive procedures, such as a blood transfusion. It can mount a rapid noradrenaline response from 18 weeks gestation and a slower cortisol and ß-endorphin response at least from 20 weeks. It also responds by increasing blood flow to the brain. This has been demonstrated from 16 weeks.""


http://www.nrlc.org/news/2000/NRL09/ranalli.html
""The authority Dr. Glover brings to the debate makes it difficult for the RCOG, and the general public, to ignore her concerns. The RCOG Working Party referenced one of the key fetal pain research projects she published in 1994 with Dr. Nicholas Fisk and colleagues.

Their research revealed that, in response to a painful procedure, fetuses as early as 19 weeks release large amounts of pain and stress hormones into the fetal bloodstream, the same hormonal surge that occurs in adults. An earlier study by German researcher Dr. Joachim Partch detected similar hormones in the surrounding amniotic fluid as early as 16 weeks into the pregnancy.""

[Salvation]

Roe v. "Roe"
Should the 1973 Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion be overturned?
a. Yes, I support Norma McCorvey's efforts.				(63%)
b. No, a woman has the right to choose.				(34%)
c. Not sure				(3%

[dsc]

"Every time I have been on an abortion thread, the prolife side has gone immediately to ad hominem and stayed there."

I find that impossible to believe.

"Personal attack seems to be the only way they can think of to deal with someone who values liberty over religion."

People here have been advancing reasoned arguments that utterly refute your position.

Besides, you're not favoring "liberty over religion," you're favoring legalized murder of the innocent over the protection of innocent life. As far as I know, even the most secular of social philosophers draw the line at murder.

[dsc]

"Principles need not derive from God."

Two things:

1. Any principle based in truth does derive from God, whether anyone likes it or not; and

2. Will and Ariel Durant
Does history warrant the conclusion that religion is necessary to morality -- that a natural ethic is too weak to withstand the savagery that lurks under civilization and emerges in our dreams, crimes, and wars? ... There is no significant example in history, before our time, of a society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion.

[Taxman]

I pray that I am still alive when the United States of America becomes a moral nation, guided by the Founding Father's wisdom:

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. . . ."

Until then, I will continue to fight the good fight.

[Gophack]

Forcing women to take unwanted pregnancies to term doesn't faze you a bit, does it?

Killing an innocent pre-born person bothers me a whole lot more.

Abortion is simply the murder of one person to make the life easier for another person. It is never justified (though people try all the time.)

[Gophack]

63% support! Yeah!

[Gophack]

She has never gotten over it.

This is the second tragedy of abortion.

The pro-aborts never think about the women whose lives they destroy.

Women who abort fall into two camps: Either they join the pro-abort movement to justify their actions (they didn't do anything wrong and they're going to scream until you agree that they didn't kill a baby) or they are so distraught they turn to the pro-life movement almost in repentance, so they can live with themselves again. And with God's grace and forgiveness, they will heal.

Or they kill themselves because they can't live with the pain. They don't have to out-and-out kill themselves. Look at McCorvey. She drowned herself in alcohol because of her complicity in the abortion industry. Slow death. Either way, women hurt themselves because of the pain instead, a pain that society doesn't recognize and won't acknowledge, making getting help even harder.

We spending millions of dollars helping drug addicts and alcoholics get clean and sober, but not a dime helping women get over the trauma of an abortion. Isn't taking drugs and abortion a "choice"?

[Gophack]

I have never attacked anyone who disagrees with me on abortion. I pray for them.

First, I believe that an unborn baby is a human person. Because that baby is a human person, she deserves to live as guaranteed in our constitution: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Abortion can be a religious issue, but I was pro-life BEFORE I returned to the church of my youth (I was raised Catholic, but rarely went to church from when I was 8 until I was 23, and didn't fully have a reconversion until I was 30).

Putting religion aside, either the unborn baby is a person or not. If the unborn baby is a person, her life should be protected by government just like yours and mine. If she's not a person, the point is mute. It has nothing to do with religion, only the definition of a person.

Abortion is simply the killing of an innocent human person for the convenience of another human person.

[attagirl]

Well, when do you suppose life begins?