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Oldest Human Skulls Found
BBC ^ | 6-11-2003 | Jonathan Amos

Posted on 06/11/2003 8:03:26 AM PDT by blam

Oldest human skulls found

By Jonathan Amos
BBC News Online science staff

Three fossilised skulls unearthed in Ethiopia are said by scientists to be among the most important discoveries ever made in the search for the origin of humans.

Herto skull: Dated at between 160,000 and 154,000 years old (Image copyright: David L. Brill)

The crania of two adults and a child, all dated to be around 160,000 years old, were pulled out of sediments near a village called Herto in the Afar region in the east of the country.

They are described as the oldest known fossils of modern humans, or Homo sapiens.

What excites scientists so much is that the specimens fit neatly with the genetic studies that have suggested this time and part of Africa for the emergence of mankind.

"All the genetics have pointed to a geologically recent origin for humans in Africa - and now we have the fossils," said Professor Tim White, one of the co-leaders on the research team that found the skulls.

"These specimens are critical because they bridge the gap between the earlier more archaic forms in Africa and the fully modern humans that we see 100,000 years ago," the University of California at Berkeley, US, paleoanthropologist told BBC News Online.

Out of Africa

The skulls are not an exact match to those of people living today; they are slightly larger, longer and have more pronounced brow ridges.

These minor but important differences have prompted the US/Ethiopian research team to assign the skulls to a new subspecies of humans called Homo sapiens idaltu (idaltu means "elder" in the local Afar language).

Herto reconstruction: What the ancient people might have looked like (Image copyright: J. Matternes)

The Herto discoveries were hailed on Wednesday by those researchers who have championed the idea that all humans living today come from a population that emerged from Africa within the last 200,000 years.

The proponents of the so-called Out of Africa hypothesis think this late migration of humans supplanted all other human-like species alive around the world at the time - such as the Neanderthals in Europe.

If modern features already existed in Africa 160,000 years ago, they argued, we could not have descended from species like Neanderthals.

"These skulls are fantastic evidence in support of the Out of Africa idea," Professor Chris Stringer, from London's Natural History Museum, told BBC News Online.

"These people were living in the right place and at the right time to be possibly the ancestors of all of us."

Sophisticated behaviour

The skulls were found in fragments, at a fossil-rich site first identified in 1997, in a dry and dusty valley.

Stone tools and the fossil skull of a butchered hippo were the first artefacts to be picked up. Buffalo fossils were later recovered indicating the ancient humans had a meat-rich diet.

The most complete of the adult skulls was seen protruding from the ancient sediment; it had been exposed by heavy rains and partially trampled by herds of cows.

SEARCH FOR HUMAN ORIGINS

The Herto skulls represent a confirmation of the genetic studies

The skull of the child - probably aged six or seven - had been shattered into more than 200 pieces and had to be painstakingly reconstructed.

All the skulls had cut marks indicating they had been de-fleshed in some kind of mortuary practice. The polishing on the skulls, however, suggests this was not simple cannibalism but more probably some kind of ritualistic behaviour.

This type of practice has been recorded in more modern societies, including some in New Guinea, in which the skulls of ancestors are preserved and worshipped.

The Herto skulls may therefore mark the earliest known example of conceptual thinking - the sophisticated behaviour that stands us apart from all other animals.

"This is very possibly the case," Professor White said.

The Ethiopian discoveries are reported in the journal Nature.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: adamandeve; bloodbath; creationism; crevolist; darwin; darwinism; ethiopia; evolution; found; godsgravesglyphs; herto; homosapiensidaltu; human; missinglink; oldest; skulls
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To: Doctor Stochastic
So as Stalin was anti-Darwin, and had Darwin's supporters executed, your logic would appear to show that Stalin wasn't an atheist. Of course, Stalin did attend a seminary in his formative years.

Using a psychopath as an example doesn't solve anything.

321 posted on 06/13/2003 11:05:16 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: Physicist
Trying to explain science to the kindergardeners again? Introduce them to Popper yet? Think they're ready?
322 posted on 06/13/2003 11:07:08 AM PDT by jayef
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To: jayef
In poker there is no prize for second place (( tied for last place ))...

the worst hand (( sucker )) to have is 2nd best (( good cards with no help too )) ---

very seldom there are ties !

Twilight zone (( evolution )) poker -- science -- politics -- religion too !


323 posted on 06/13/2003 11:09:34 AM PDT by f.Christian (( apocalypsis, from Gr. apokalypsis, from apokalyptein to uncover, from apo- + kalyptein to cover))
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To: Physicist
I get the impression that if the average creationist could simply destroy the fossil record, he'd do it in a heartbeat.

FYI, I am an average creationist. Your impression is wrong.

324 posted on 06/13/2003 11:10:46 AM PDT by far sider
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To: Doctor Stochastic
"It seemed that indeed the truth would be 'forever on the scaffold, and wrong forever on the throne'. With great eagerness he listened to the query, 'How long shall be the vision?'(Daniel 8:13)."


Daniel and the Coming King

Chapter 16

The Gospel In Daniel 9:24

By Dr.Desmond Ford

"It would be tragic if we contented ourselves with an analytical examination of this passage of Scripture. It is not merely a scintillating gem to be admired, but the bread of life to be eaten. It consists of 'the everlasting gospel' in minature."

"That which should concern us all the more than the issues of hermeneutics is the issue of life---our life. Not minutiae of phrophetic interpretation, but sin, sorrow, and death constitute our problems. Daniel 9:24 assures us that the world is a ship and not an iceberg, that God is intensely interested in our dilemma, and, best of all, that He has done something to extricate us from the apparent cul-de-sac of existence. In Christ, the Melchizedekan King-Priest, He has brought in everlasting righteousness, freely offered to all who believe."

Chapter 14

Daniel and the Coming King---Daniel 9

By Dr.Desmond Ford

"Sir Isaac Newton, the greatest of scientists prior to the modern period, wrote a commentary upon the prohecies of Daniel and Revelations. He desribed Daniel 9:24-27 as "the foudation-stone of the Christian religion" because centuries in advance it gave the time of appearance of the Messiah and His death, as well as a comprehensive description of His saving work in heaven and earth. The prophecy likewise tells what would be the fate of the Jews consequent upon their rejection of the One whose coming they had long anticpated. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, foretold in Daniel 9:24-27, was history's testimony that the offerings and services of the sanctuary had met their fulfillment in the advent of the promised Messiah."

Newton, Isaac. Observsations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalpse of St. John. London: J. Darby and T. Browne, 1733 (Isaac Newton)

Chrystalk ...

"All of this while the book itself says it is sealed up, and never will be understood until the End of Days --- which we are living in ... "

Chapter 14

Daniel and the Coming King---Daniel 9

by Dr.Desmond Ford @ ... GNU (( link )).

Seal Up the Vision

"The expression 'to seal up the vision' (v.24) should be considered. This expression, 'the vision', occurs eleven times in Daniel 8:1 to 10:1, and in all these cases it refers to the vision described in the eighth chapter of Daniel. The reader is advised to read again the entire passage. In pictorial, symbolic form the prophet was shown the unfolding of all future centuries till the second advent of Christ. The famous empires, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, which long oppressed the people of God, are described; but particular emphasis is given to the persecution of the church during the Christian era and also to the supremacy of the couterfeit, apostate religion over most of that period. Christ's mediatorial ministry in heaven is alluded to, but its eclipse from men's mind through a counterfeit system is fortold. The sanctuary mentioned refers both to the church temple indwelt by the Holy Spirit on earth, as well as Israel's typical sanctuary. No doubt Daniel was dazed by this revelation of the apparent triumph of evil. In his lifetime he had witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem's temple, the center of true religion, and the carrying into captivity of the people of God by an idolatrous and desolating nation. Now in vision he is informed that this state of affairs is to continue on a much greater scale throughout most of the earth's history. It seemed that indeed the truth would be 'forever on the scaffold, and wrong forever on the throne'. With great eagerness he listened to the query, 'How long shall be the vision?'(Daniel 8:13)."

"Now in the revelation of 9:24-27 the mourning seer is told that there is a greater Prince of the house of Judah, a greater atonement, a greater sanctuary, and a greater redemption than any ever before experienced by Israel. The long-awaited Messiah, the Prince, a Priest-King, will take away the sin of the world and end earth's dark night. Thus 9:24 and 8:14 point to the same reality---the kingdom of God ignaugurated at the first advent and consummated at the second."
325 posted on 06/13/2003 11:11:36 AM PDT by f.Christian (( apocalypsis, from Gr. apokalypsis, from apokalyptein to uncover, from apo- + kalyptein to cover))
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To: far sider
FYI, I am an average creationist.

Extraordinary! How big a sample size did you use?

Your impression is wrong.

I get the impression that the average creationist would not admit to wanting to destroy the fossil record, even if he did. ;^)

326 posted on 06/13/2003 11:21:14 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist
I get the impression that the average creationist would not admit to wanting to destroy the fossil record, even if he did.

I get the impression that the average creationist would destroy far more than the fossil record. There's books to be banned, schools to be closed, museums to be torched, research to be outlawed ... and then there's all those pesky scientists to be dealt with.

327 posted on 06/13/2003 11:49:11 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Grammar alert: there's = there are
328 posted on 06/13/2003 12:30:11 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: jayef
Keep pounding that rock.

Count on it.

329 posted on 06/13/2003 1:34:10 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: exmarine
becuase no skull has been found older than 70,000 years (argument from silence), that means there aren't any

Very true, and the authors of this study would agree. That's why this find was exciting-- one version of current evolutionary theory, which was disputed by other scientists, predicted that we would find homo sapiens fossils older than 100,000 years ago in Africa but not in Europe. This find is thus evidence for that theory.

Tell me how someone can be naturalistic but not materialistic? If science is confined 100% to the natural order then it is also confined to materialism since natural processes involve matter and matter only. If you try to insert anything supernatural or metaphysical, it is no longer naturalistic.

The distinction I was trying to make-- and I made have used the terms "materialistic" and "naturalistic" incorrectly, in which case I apologize -- is that science is "naturalistic" in that it only studies natural phenomena with natural causes, but it is not "materialistic" in the sense that it does not necessarily deny that there are things which are spiritual or otherwise non-material, it merely doesn't study them. (See, for example, Gould's book on science and religion as "two non-competing magisteria".)

An atheist must be a darwinist

(a) Even if this were true, it wouldn't mean that the converse must be true-- that a believer cannot be a darwinist.
(b)It isn't true, anyway-- there were atheists before Darwin, and there have been nondarwinian atheists after Darwin (Stalinist Russia was officially atheistic but banned the teaching of darwinism; Soviet scientists preferred some other theory.)

The Pope's position on evolution certainly appears to contradict the Genesis account, and is incompatible with Christian doctrine.

I am a Jew, not a Christian, so I will let you and the Pope argue this one out.

330 posted on 06/13/2003 1:49:19 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: exmarine
Molecule-to-man evolution is not compatible with scripture. Period.

(a)Some people disagree, which is I guess why there are thousands of churches, all of which claim to be "Christian"; but, in any event,
(b)I am not arguing for molecule-to-man evolution, but rather for evolution as originally envisioned by Darwin in the last paragraph of The Origin of Species -- evolution of all life forms from one primeval life form created by God (protozoa-to-man, if you will).

Polls are no indicator of truth.

True, but if many, many evolutionists profess a belief in God, and many believers in God claim to be evolutionists, maybe that rebuts your claim that evolution necessarily entails atheism.

331 posted on 06/13/2003 1:59:31 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
(a)Some people disagree, which is I guess why there are thousands of churches, all of which claim to be "Christian"; but, in any event, (b)I am not arguing for molecule-to-man evolution, but rather for evolution as originally envisioned by Darwin in the last paragraph of The Origin of Species -- evolution of all life forms from one primeval life form created by God (protozoa-to-man, if you will).

Funny, I know of no "theistic evolutionist" denomination. Do you? The ONLY guide for a Christian is the bible (unless he would like to be his own God). To reject scripture is to step outside of historic Christian mainstream beliefs, and outside of ESSENTIAL Christian doctrine. The bible says God created man and woman in full form, and Jesus Christ himself said this: But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. Could you ask one of your Christian evolutionist friends to parse that verse for me? If one wants to toss scripture out, then they are welcome to be a theistic evolutionist, but I won't allow them to call themselves orthodox or mainstream. Without scripture, they don't have a leg to stand on other than their own imaginations.

Darwin was an unbeliever. It's rather foolish for a Christian believer to put stock in what a god-hater with no evidence theorizes, don't you think? Just what evidence did he have to support his claims other than simple intra-specie variation? Even less than they have today, which is none!

332 posted on 06/13/2003 2:29:17 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: Lurking Libertarian
True, but if many, many evolutionists profess a belief in God, and many believers in God claim to be evolutionists, maybe that rebuts your claim that evolution necessarily entails atheism.

That's not what I said. I said that atheists have no choice but to be evolutionists (only other game in town other than special creation). People can believe in God an evolution, I don't care, but a "Christian" who believes in evolution cannot do so without being anti-scriptural.

333 posted on 06/13/2003 2:32:10 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: Eaker
Ping to read at home.
334 posted on 06/13/2003 2:32:40 PM PDT by Eaker (AdiĆ³s reality; I want to be a Jack-Ass millionaire!!............;<)
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To: exmarine
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me. I do not think you are qualified to determine who is and who isn't a Christian. Christians believe a great many things. Christians are not a monolith.

I believe that my religious beliefs have nothing to do with science. None of what I believe is challenged in any way by science. Belief in an inviolate word and in the literal meaning of those words may be your litmus test, but not everyone accepts such constraints on their practice of religion.

I'm sure you will now just claim that we are all a bunch of moral relativists and that there is no place for a different interpretation of the word. This is not true now, it has never been true, and it will never be true. Many Christian denominations give testimony to that point.

You are not my judge. You won't judge me here on Earth. You won't judge me in heaven above.
335 posted on 06/13/2003 2:44:41 PM PDT by jayef
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To: jayef
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me. I do not think you are qualified to determine who is and who isn't a Christian. Christians believe a great many things. Christians are not a monolith.

You think you can be a Christian and reject the bible? If you say yes, then you need to tell me what authority you use to live the Christian life, and precisely how you know that Jesus Christ is Savior. You can't accept this part of the bible and not another. Either it is true or it is false, unless you want to play God and decide for yourself which parts of the bible are true and which parts are false.

I believe that my religious beliefs have nothing to do with science. None of what I believe is challenged in any way by science. Belief in an inviolate word and in the literal meaning of those words may be your litmus test, but not everyone accepts such constraints on their practice of religion.

Really? If God created all things in the universe, do you think He also created the natural laws that govern science? Is ALL of life governed by God or just parts of it? Is God also separate from politics? What is science? Who decides that definition? An atheist?

I'm sure you will now just claim that we are all a bunch of moral relativists and that there is no place for a different interpretation of the word. This is not true now, it has never been true, and it will never be true. Many Christian denominations give testimony to that point.

There's no room for interpretation on the ESSENTIALS of the faith. Deny any of those and you are no longer within the pale of orthodox Christianity (e.g. Jesus Christ is God, 2nd person of the Triune God, virgin birth, salvation by Grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone, Crucifixion, atonement and Resurrection, and ORIGINAL SIN). If you want to be a heterodox Christian, go right ahead.

No, God is your judge. If the truth offends you, then perhaps you have some introspection and reading to do.

336 posted on 06/13/2003 2:55:57 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: exmarine
Darwin was an unbeliever.

Really? Didn't he write this in the last chapter of The Origin of Species:

It is interesting to contemplate a tangled bank, clothed with many plants of many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various insects flitting about, and with worms crawling through the damp earth, and to reflect that these elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and dependent upon each other in so complex a manner, have all been produced by laws acting around us. These laws, taken in the largest sense, being Growth with reproduction; Inheritance which is almost implied by reproduction; Variability from the indirect and direct action of the conditions of life, and from use and disuse; a Ratio of Increase so high as to lead to a Struggle for Life, and as a consequence to Natural Selection, entailing Divergence of Character and the Extinction of less improved forms. Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

Just what evidence did he have to support his claims other than simple intra-specie variation? Even less than they have today, which is none!

None? Really? Haven't you ever seen any evidence for macroevolution? Or any observed instances of one species turning into another?

337 posted on 06/13/2003 3:58:47 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: Physicist
Which is the one for evo'n?
338 posted on 06/13/2003 5:15:42 PM PDT by plusone
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To: exmarine
Darwin was an unbeliever. It's rather foolish for a Christian believer to put stock in what a god-hater with no evidence theorizes, don't you think?

WOW! You are getting to be more and more of an out-an-out liar! I am just astounded that your moral code would allow that. Do you have some special dispensation for this behavour?

Also, I note that you never answered this question:

Neodarwinists theorize that there is no non-material mind or self - we are our brains. Are you actually going to try to deny that?

What would be the point in assuming "magic happens" instead?


339 posted on 06/13/2003 5:55:47 PM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: plusone
Which is the one for evo'n?

Yeast artificial chromosomes. Most of the recombinant DNA people have made is certainly, in part, the product of human ingenuity, but they are nothing that couldn't in principle have come about naturally. And after all, Darwin never actually specified the source of variation, so even a "Flavr Savr" tomato doesn't really qualify as a counterexample to Darwinian evolution. YACs, by contrast, are objects that can be totally unrelated to their "parent" organism, and strictly a product of intelligent design.

The time may come when a large fraction of the organisms on Earth are non-evolved constructs. Discussions of their origin and development will center not on the fossil record, but on the manufacturer's specifications. At that point, evolution will rightly take the passenger seat (if never a back seat).

In case anyone is interested, the two results I thought of that violate the atomic theory of matter are the diffraction of individual atoms through multiple apertures (wherein an atom behaves as an extended wave) and the Bose-Einstein condensate (wherein a macroscopic collection of atoms loses all individual atomic identity, and interacts with the rest of the universe as a single, indivisible object).

340 posted on 06/13/2003 6:14:20 PM PDT by Physicist
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