Extension of Objectivism discussion regarding the soul

Various | Various | Various

[unspun]

Well A-G, about the Scriptures you presented, in each case of sin, the sinner set his will against God and in each case of obedience, the believer set will in agreement with God -- even, shucks, ESPECIALLY! ;-` in the case of Jesus, who despite admitting to his dreadful paradox of will, set his will to the cross, after setting his face like a flint toward Jerusalem for that purpose. And it was He who decided to come in to the cold, stinking world do all this from Eternity with the Father. Now THAT was WILLFULNESS!!!

I can't seem to find willfulness to be a problem any more than I find that guns are to blame, in the hands of criminals. Moses paradoxically enough, though at times setting his will wrongly, wsa singled out by God for his meekness. I imagine at least in part, this was due to having so much God-given will with which to subordinate himself to God. Such strength of will to choose identifying with slaves over the Pharaoh.

And in the New Testament, who may just be the most willful man described save for Christ Himself? I wouldn't be surprised if it were Paul, who had to be physically removed from the riot in Ephesus and who wrote of "his" gospel. ;-) (The long-lived John may be a contender for that "title" too.) Thank God for those Apostle's great, great willfulness!

I may be biased, since my name is Williams, but I don't think that's it. ;-) I'm not saying that our human will has worth of itself, of course. I'm saying it is of transcendent value, since it is from God, wonderful essense of being created in His image. Wow, I wouldn't ever will to suppress such an expression of God about Himself. That would be "lieing against the truth," to me. :-`

Please let's not allow anyone to stifle our wills, not even oneself! That's not joy. Joy is turning one's will to God in His glory! Passivity is "disgusting," but "conspiring" with God is worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.

[unspun]

And David... did God say he was "a man passively complying with my own heart?"

After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'
(Whole Chapter: Acts 13 In context: Acts 13:21-23)

It takes a-lot of focused will, to keep following after someone so fast moving as God.  ;-)

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post!

My point is not that I intuitively knew there was a Banach-Tarski Paradox, or could have solved for Penrose Tiles before he did – much less devised the Schwarzchild radius, M-theory, etc. It is that once I’ve read such a discovery or theory, it then makes sense to me, intuitively. It rings true to my spirit. It’s like when Penrose looks at an Escher and feels the geometric truth of it.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your views on willfulness, unspun!

I do understand “where you are coming from” but I’m not in agreement. I think we are looking at the same end result, but from different perspectives or perhaps we have a different understanding of willfulness.

What you see as willfulness on the part of Jesus coming from eternity to earth, I see as obedience. I cannot imagine Jesus wanting to leave the Father whom He loves with all of His being. In my view, Christ’s will would be to stay with the Father, but He surrendered His will to the Father and came to earth to do His bidding. Of everything Christ suffered on the cross (Psalms 22) - rejection, even temporary, must have been the worst.

Indeed, Moses was the most humble man on earth. You call it willfulness that Moses subordinated himself to God, I call it obedience.

Certainly Paul was strong willed. And when his self became at issue, God gave him a thorn in the flesh to humble him:

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. – II Cor 12:7-10

To me, the issue is like not being able to have love without hate, courage without fear, strength without weakness, humility without pride. There can be no obedience without willfulness. When Christ tells us to abide in Him and He will abide in us, it’s not an invitation for viral invasion, multiple personalities or a collective consciousness. Our identity is surrendered in Him and He glorifies us.

In an earthly parallel, a loving married couple can be so “into” each other that when the husband dies, the widow (or widower) cannot tell you whether she wants a hamburger with cheese because that’s what she wants or because that’s what he always wanted. The two were one.

Please let's not allow anyone to stifle our wills, not even oneself! That's not joy. Joy is turning one's will to God in His glory! Passivity is "disgusting," but "conspiring" with God is worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.

You must worship God as you see fit. As for me, I surrender my will to Jesus, I pour myself into Him and He fills me with Himself. The less of me, and the more of Him, the better. That is pure joy to me! You are like Paul, I am like John.

[unspun]

I need to go to bed A-G. Surrender yes, but much more than that is to join.

Show me a passage that says "loose yourself so that you no longer have an identity and are directly animated by me." Oh my, I sure wouldn't want a wife nor child like that. Darling lady, pick up your tasty cheeseburger and enjoy it with your Master and be glad for it with Him! To put it delicately, the husband wants a bride that will be engaged in love with him, not just let him do what he does with her. And the father wants to play catch, not have a target. ;-)

Why would God want emptied what He has regenerated? Why did he make people with wills, in His own image in the first place? -- Such a hideously costly thing for Jesus to pay for just see it all abandoned instead of enjoined.

Maybe you are into "quietism" A? Yes we need to be still and know... to listen and not offer the sacrifice of fools in the presence of the King, but beeeyooonnnnd that, we need to actively engage in a relationship with the one we were created for, having heard the King.

As for John he very willingly leaned his head on Jesus breast. That is what he wanted to do! And was the picture of motivation running to see the empty tomb. And listen to the passion and creative expression in his Epistles, not automatic writing. He is fully engaged as one actively given to and with His Savior. As for Paul, the words say that his heightened experiences with God were the heady stuff, not the strong impetus God chose him for, due to the vastness and arduousness of his mission. Thank God he didn't relent, but went to Rome.

As for Jesus, it was "for the joy set before him...!" -- "he will see his children and be satisfied...." He is the personification of the initiating God, and we are both responders and cooperators in the fulfillment of His mission.

Don't you dare spill out the identity He has bled to pour into you. ;-` Glorify God with the only thing you are: you. (He is him and needs no other.)

[unspun]

John 10
¹⁷The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. ¹⁸No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Hebrews 10
⁵Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
   "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
       but a body you prepared for me;
    ⁶with burnt offerings and sin offerings
       you were not pleased.
    ⁷Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll--
       I have come to do your will, O God.' "^{[1] 8}First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). ⁹Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. ¹⁰And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Psalm 40
⁶ Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced ^[1] , ^[2] ;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.
⁷ Then I said, "Here I am, I have come-
it is written about me in the scroll. ^[3]
8 I desire to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart."

[stuartcr]

You were reassured after reading a book that was written by someone that cannot know anymore about the unknown than anyone else...Why?

[betty boop]

And the discoveries invariably confirm what I already instinctively, spiritually, knew ought to be there.

A-G, you point to the critical difference between knowing and knowing about. The first is primary, the second derivative from a process of investigation. We might say (in the language of Pascal) that the former is "finesse thinking" (intuitive); the latter "geometrical thinking." We routinely do both; but lately there is a tendency to say that only the geometrical is legitimate. Thus discounting all primary experience, which is essentially intuitive.

Scientism really has gotten matters pretty warped. JMHO FWIW.

[unspun]

I don't have much time right now, but that's a good question. The basic answer is that I was reminded of what the Word of God is, as written in the Scriptures, and it resounded in my mind and heart, where the Holy Spirit has been accepted.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for this conversation and for sharing your views! I suspect this is a very timely issue to many believers, especially perhaps to women.

I have a daughter and a step-daughter who both deeply resented the passages in Scripture which instruct a woman to submit to her husband – I suspect they feared losing their own identity and potentially being under a cruel thumb. All my kids are very strong willed as am I. But strength and will are two different things.

The counter-balance to the submission passages are three commands to the husband to love the wife. Paul further expands the meaning of love in that context to the self-sacrificing love that Christ has for the church. I believe the one-sided command to the husband is because perfect love casts out all fear. The parallel of marital submission to spiritual submission is based on Scripture (emphasis mine):

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband. – Ephesians 5:21-33

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. – I John 4:18

Your challenge “Show me a passage that says "loose yourself so that you no longer have an identity and are directly animated by me." … To put it delicately, the husband wants a bride that will be engaged in love with him, not just let him do what he does with her. reminds me a lot of the concerns my daughter’s raised about marriage. I have been married several times, two of my husbands are deceased. On experience, I assure you that where the husband loves the wife, there is no mean-spirited conduct of any kind – including coercion - and conversely, where that love is not there, there is no marriage only two people living under a civil agreement at law (which ought be dissolved IMHO FWIW.) But what God has joined together, no man ought put asunder (Matthew 19:6).

Jesus’ authority spoken of in John 10:17 which you quoted – i.e. to lay down His life only to take it up again - is unique to Jesus and is a gift of the Father:

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; - John 5:26

The passages you quote from Hebrews 10 support my contention that Jesus surrendered His will to the Father’s will, especially this:

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. – Hebrews 10:9-10

The passage from Psalms 40 and in many other places throughout Scripture concern the doing of God’s will. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus raised the bar as follows:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. – Matthew 5:48

The command isn’t to do perfect things or say perfect things, He said to be perfect. This is something that mortals cannot achieve (all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God) --- but it can be achieved by God in His presence in us in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Why would God want emptied what He has regenerated? Why did he make people with wills, in His own image in the first place? -- Such a hideously costly thing for Jesus to pay for just see it all abandoned instead of enjoined… Don't you dare spill out the identity He has bled to pour into you. ;-` Glorify God with the only thing you are: you. (He is him and needs no other.)

I’m troubled that you are offended by my submission to God. But that is your problem, not mine. I have no regrets; quite the contrary, I have great joy and peace in my submission – and I’m much, much stronger as a result, because when it is not me doing and saying things, I am a vessel of His will.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. - II Cor 10:3-6

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure - Philippians 2:13

The same Greek word for will in Philippians 2:13 is interpreted as “listeth” in the following passage:

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:7-8

[stuartcr]

OK, thanx

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply and for confirming my understanding of your post! You really opened my eyes to scientism. Hugs!!!

[unspun]

A-G, I don't have time to read this much valued post right now, but for the moment, let me say that I AGREE STRONGLY with all the Scriptures you've quoted!

tee hee hee

[cornelis]

Darling lady, pick up your tasty cheeseburger and enjoy it with your Master

I had a hunch you were a bit odd--forgive me. But this last bit is such a gooey, coagulated, decompressed, and semi-ripened curd of a sentence that I nearly slipped on your point.

And I am such a skeptic. I am suspicious of myself. How did I manage to see through this drip?

A-G didn't. She's not dancing wid' ya.

[betty boop]

You've got quite a friend in Elizabeth Newman, betty boop. Maybe we should make her article the next one to post a thread on!!! What do you think A-G?

It's a great article, Brother Arlen. I'd be up for a standalone post!!! You want to do the honors, or should I?

[unspun]

I'm presuming you picked up the context from the post to which this replies. Tell me then. What's yer beef?

[unspun]

I'm really busy for the rest of the week, could you post Betsy's article?

(And I'm wondering who's dancing to what tune, in this little discussion of will vs. what... anti-will? eastern mysticism? In a dance, the lady moves with the man in full agreement that causes her to fully, willfully dance in submission to her Waltz partner. She likes it, Mikey. What is the problem? Misapplied doctrine of dennial?)

[unspun]

...a bit odd--forgive me.

But thanks for the compliment, c.

[cornelis]

What's yer beef?

I like the beef. It's the cheese. Too much cheese.

[unspun]

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. – Hebrews 10:9-10

He did that of his own free will! He didn't lose his will any more than he lost his reason or sensibilities, his mind or his heart.

BTW, it looks to me like "the first" as is refered to here in the context, is the sacrificial system (compliance with law) and "the second" is full hearted obedience.

Love the LORD with all your heart all your mind all your soul and all your might! See?