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Thank you so much for sharing your views on willfulness, unspun!

I do understand “where you are coming from” but I’m not in agreement. I think we are looking at the same end result, but from different perspectives or perhaps we have a different understanding of willfulness.

What you see as willfulness on the part of Jesus coming from eternity to earth, I see as obedience. I cannot imagine Jesus wanting to leave the Father whom He loves with all of His being. In my view, Christ’s will would be to stay with the Father, but He surrendered His will to the Father and came to earth to do His bidding. Of everything Christ suffered on the cross (Psalms 22) - rejection, even temporary, must have been the worst.

Indeed, Moses was the most humble man on earth. You call it willfulness that Moses subordinated himself to God, I call it obedience.

Certainly Paul was strong willed. And when his self became at issue, God gave him a thorn in the flesh to humble him:

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. – II Cor 12:7-10

To me, the issue is like not being able to have love without hate, courage without fear, strength without weakness, humility without pride. There can be no obedience without willfulness. When Christ tells us to abide in Him and He will abide in us, it’s not an invitation for viral invasion, multiple personalities or a collective consciousness. Our identity is surrendered in Him and He glorifies us.

In an earthly parallel, a loving married couple can be so “into” each other that when the husband dies, the widow (or widower) cannot tell you whether she wants a hamburger with cheese because that’s what she wants or because that’s what he always wanted. The two were one.

Please let's not allow anyone to stifle our wills, not even oneself! That's not joy. Joy is turning one's will to God in His glory! Passivity is "disgusting," but "conspiring" with God is worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.

You must worship God as you see fit. As for me, I surrender my will to Jesus, I pour myself into Him and He fills me with Himself. The less of me, and the more of Him, the better. That is pure joy to me! You are like Paul, I am like John.

I need to go to bed A-G. Surrender yes, but much more than that is to join.

Show me a passage that says "loose yourself so that you no longer have an identity and are directly animated by me." Oh my, I sure wouldn't want a wife nor child like that. Darling lady, pick up your tasty cheeseburger and enjoy it with your Master and be glad for it with Him! To put it delicately, the husband wants a bride that will be engaged in love with him, not just let him do what he does with her. And the father wants to play catch, not have a target. ;-)

Why would God want emptied what He has regenerated? Why did he make people with wills, in His own image in the first place? -- Such a hideously costly thing for Jesus to pay for just see it all abandoned instead of enjoined.

Maybe you are into "quietism" A? Yes we need to be still and know... to listen and not offer the sacrifice of fools in the presence of the King, but beeeyooonnnnd that, we need to actively engage in a relationship with the one we were created for, having heard the King.

As for John he very willingly leaned his head on Jesus breast. That is what he wanted to do! And was the picture of motivation running to see the empty tomb. And listen to the passion and creative expression in his Epistles, not automatic writing. He is fully engaged as one actively given to and with His Savior. As for Paul, the words say that his heightened experiences with God were the heady stuff, not the strong impetus God chose him for, due to the vastness and arduousness of his mission. Thank God he didn't relent, but went to Rome.

As for Jesus, it was "for the joy set before him...!" -- "he will see his children and be satisfied...." He is the personification of the initiating God, and we are both responders and cooperators in the fulfillment of His mission.

Don't you dare spill out the identity He has bled to pour into you. ;-` Glorify God with the only thing you are: you. (He is him and needs no other.)

John 10
¹⁷The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. ¹⁸No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Hebrews 10
⁵Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
   "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
       but a body you prepared for me;
   ⁶with burnt offerings and sin offerings
       you were not pleased.
   ⁷Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll--
       I have come to do your will, O God.' "^[1] ⁸First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). ⁹Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. ¹⁰And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Psalm 40
⁶ Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced ^[1] , ^[2] ;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.
⁷ Then I said, "Here I am, I have come-
it is written about me in the scroll. ^[3]
⁸ I desire to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart."