[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for this conversation and for sharing your views! I suspect this is a very timely issue to many believers, especially perhaps to women.

I have a daughter and a step-daughter who both deeply resented the passages in Scripture which instruct a woman to submit to her husband – I suspect they feared losing their own identity and potentially being under a cruel thumb. All my kids are very strong willed as am I. But strength and will are two different things.

The counter-balance to the submission passages are three commands to the husband to love the wife. Paul further expands the meaning of love in that context to the self-sacrificing love that Christ has for the church. I believe the one-sided command to the husband is because perfect love casts out all fear. The parallel of marital submission to spiritual submission is based on Scripture (emphasis mine):

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband. – Ephesians 5:21-33

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. – I John 4:18

Your challenge “Show me a passage that says "loose yourself so that you no longer have an identity and are directly animated by me." … To put it delicately, the husband wants a bride that will be engaged in love with him, not just let him do what he does with her. reminds me a lot of the concerns my daughter’s raised about marriage. I have been married several times, two of my husbands are deceased. On experience, I assure you that where the husband loves the wife, there is no mean-spirited conduct of any kind – including coercion - and conversely, where that love is not there, there is no marriage only two people living under a civil agreement at law (which ought be dissolved IMHO FWIW.) But what God has joined together, no man ought put asunder (Matthew 19:6).

Jesus’ authority spoken of in John 10:17 which you quoted – i.e. to lay down His life only to take it up again - is unique to Jesus and is a gift of the Father:

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; - John 5:26

The passages you quote from Hebrews 10 support my contention that Jesus surrendered His will to the Father’s will, especially this:

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. – Hebrews 10:9-10

The passage from Psalms 40 and in many other places throughout Scripture concern the doing of God’s will. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus raised the bar as follows:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. – Matthew 5:48

The command isn’t to do perfect things or say perfect things, He said to be perfect. This is something that mortals cannot achieve (all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God) --- but it can be achieved by God in His presence in us in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Why would God want emptied what He has regenerated? Why did he make people with wills, in His own image in the first place? -- Such a hideously costly thing for Jesus to pay for just see it all abandoned instead of enjoined… Don't you dare spill out the identity He has bled to pour into you. ;-` Glorify God with the only thing you are: you. (He is him and needs no other.)

I’m troubled that you are offended by my submission to God. But that is your problem, not mine. I have no regrets; quite the contrary, I have great joy and peace in my submission – and I’m much, much stronger as a result, because when it is not me doing and saying things, I am a vessel of His will.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. - II Cor 10:3-6

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure - Philippians 2:13

The same Greek word for will in Philippians 2:13 is interpreted as “listeth” in the following passage:

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:7-8

[unspun]

A-G, I don't have time to read this much valued post right now, but for the moment, let me say that I AGREE STRONGLY with all the Scriptures you've quoted!

tee hee hee

[unspun]

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. – Hebrews 10:9-10

He did that of his own free will! He didn't lose his will any more than he lost his reason or sensibilities, his mind or his heart.

BTW, it looks to me like "the first" as is refered to here in the context, is the sacrificial system (compliance with law) and "the second" is full hearted obedience.

Love the LORD with all your heart all your mind all your soul and all your might! See?

[unspun]

I’m troubled that you are offended by my submission to God. But that is your problem, not mine. I have no regrets; quite the contrary, I have great joy and peace in my submission – and I’m much, much stronger as a result, because when it is not me doing and saying things, I am a vessel of His will.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. - II Cor 10:3-6

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure - Philippians 2:13

A-G, I am not the least bit offended by submission to God. I'm just stating the self-evident fact that this submission is in itself, an act of one's will. See it for yourself, in that passage in Philippians, above! To WILL and to DO of his good pleasure -- not to deny the inevitable, God given fact that one has a will. How can we will to submit to God if we deny the fact of our will to do so?

A will submitted to God and a will to Him most still, is still a will! It's a will or it... you wouldn't be able to submit to God.

[Kudsman]

Oh my this is getting good. Just catching up and so far am beginnning to tye a few things together. BBS after a few dozen more nuggets. Love.

[Kudsman]

Since my last time here this is the one thing I know: I believe the one-sided command to the husband is because perfect love casts out all fear. Love.

[Kudsman]

Dear I have to take exception with this:two people living under a civil agreement at law (which ought be dissolved IMHO FWIW.) It has been my pleasure to meet and cohabitate with my angel before committing to her for life. For no matter how I felt about her after our first meeting I had to allow her the comfort of the times. I had to let her learn to trust and love me. The same can be said about my converting from Methodist to Catholic faith 5 years ago and experiencing my renewed love. My spirituality flourishes. All will to be obiedient. Love.