Posted on 04/11/2003 5:14:00 AM PDT by Asher
Genetic evidence links Jews to their ancient tribe
By Judy Siegel
JERUSALEM (November 20) - Genetic evidence continues to provide additional proof to the claims that the Jewish people are descended from a common ancient Israelite father: Despite being separated for over 1,000 years, Sephardi Jews of North African origin are genetically indistinguishable from their brethren from Iraq, according to The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
They also proved that Sephardi Jews are very close genetically to the Jews of Kurdistan, and only slight differences exist between these two groups and Ashkenazi Jews from Europe.
These conclusions are reached in an article published recently in the American Journal of Human Genetics and written by Prof. Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University (HU) and Hadassah-University Hospital in Ein Kerem.
Others involved are German doctoral student Almut Nebel, Dr. Marina Faerman of HU, Dr. Dvora Filon of Hadassah-University Hospital, and other colleagues from Germany and India.
The researchers conducted blood tests of Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Kurdish Jews and examined their Y chromosomes, which are carried only by males. They then compared them with those of various Arab groups - Palestinians, Beduins, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese - as well as to non-Arab populations from Transcaucasia - Turks, Armenians and Moslem Kurds.
The study is based on 526 Y chromosomes typed by the Israeli team and additional data on 1,321 individuals from 12 populations. The typing of the Jewish groups was performed at the National Genome Center at HU's Silberman Institute of Life Sciences.
The Fertile Crescent of the Middle East was one of the few centers in which the transition from hunting-gathering to permanent settlement and agriculture took place. Genetic studies suggest that migrating Neolithic farmers dispersed their technological innovations and domesticated animals from the Middle East towards Europe, North Africa and Southwest Asia.
Studies of Y chromosomes have become powerful tools for the investigation of the genetic history of males, since these chromosomes are transmitted from fathers to sons.
Surprisingly, the study shows a closer genetic affinity by Jews to the non-Jewish, non-Arab populations in the northern part of the Middle East than to Arabs. These findings are consistent with known cultural links that existed among populations in the Fertile Crescent in early history, and indicate that the Jews are direct descendants of the early Middle Eastern core populations, which later divided into distinct ethnic groups speaking different languages.
Previous investigations by the HU researchers suggested a common origin for Jewish and non-Jewish populations living in the Middle East. The current study refines and delineates that connection.
It is believed that the majority of today's Jews - not including converts and non-Jews with whom Jews intermarried - descended from the ancient Israelis that lived in the historic Land of Israel until the destruction of the Second Temple and their dispersal into the Diaspora.
The researchers say that a genetic analysis of the chromosomes of Jews from various countries show that there was practically no genetic intermixing between them and the host populations among which they were scattered during their dispersion - whether in Eastern Europe, Spain, Portugal or North Africa.
A particularly intriguing case illustrating this is that of the Kurdish Jews, said to be the descendants of the Ten Tribes of Israel who were exiled in 723 BCE. to the area known today as Kurdistan, located in Northern Iraq, Iran and Eastern Turkey. They continued to live there as a separate entity until their immigration to Israel in the 1950s. The Kurdish Jews of today show a much greater affinity to their fellow Jews elsewhere than to the Kurdish Moslems.
(Source: The Jerusalem Post Newspaper)
Calling me names does not make you right, ALS. The relevant posts proving I am not a liar are archived on FreeRepublic" and include your inimitable insulting style.
Your snide and slurring commentary on the Shroud of Turin.
Because you could not respond with a counter argument that made sense you made this reply: Your failure to respond and the start of your "shoo fly" routine.
By the way, ALS, do you still maintain that non-magnetic stainless steel contains no iron??? Enquiring minds want to know.
The best you can come up with is what is not. So very, very, much more written to that House of Israel, but some have the agenda of stopping discussion, whatever method necessary.
People are no different today than during Hosea time, still have the same motivation to seek consensus by man and not understanding from our Heavenly Father.You haven't engaged discussion, you've avoided it. Not a line of the scriptures you've posted indicates that the Lost Tribes of Israel became European Caucasians, Celts, or any other particular people.
Somehow you think you set a snare for me, and the best you can do is to go hunt for a "concensus" for what your agenda is. Who are you really carrying water for?You have chosen to seek your understanding about questions the Bible doesn't answer from sources predominantly available on hate sites.
When I find the scripture that gives direction that I gain understanding from the consensus of man then I will give your claims a second thought.You utterly misunderstand. I have given you a number of opportunities to avoid the snare you set for yourself at post #6 on this thread. You keep going back to twisted interpretations of scripture and Christian Identity and Aryan Nations agitprop.
Furthermore, because a group "Christian Identity" or any other hate group takes it upon themselves to make claims that cannot be proven within the Word then both fit in the same walled box.When your scriptural references didn't support your claim that the Ten Lost Tribes are the antecedents of modern Europeans, you offered sources of a questionable nature. A negative consensus about your sources does not lead to any conflict with scripture.
You most certainly have made claims - "the Bible doesn't clearly say anthing one way or the other about European Caucasians ......."Christian Identity groups have reached the same conclusions you have about sources that both you and they cite. You used these sources to support contentions you made that the Bible doesn't support. This is a box of your own making.
My #6 post did not claim that these books were my sources that is a conclusion you so readily jumped upon.That's not quite how it went. You made a claim, I asked you to support it, and among your responses you quoted scripture. The scripture you quoted doesn't support your claim. Unless you're holding back your best scriptural evidence for a Lost Tribe origin of the Europeans, we can safely conclude that "the Bible doesn't clearly say anything one way or the other about European Caucasians."
You demand sources, I gave a list of books, and stated clearly that if there was a disagreement with what these books said with the Written Word the Word was correct.Nor have I stated that it did. Your post at #6 made the original claim, it was in your post at #169 that you stated of your list "there are more but this will get you started, remember though that when a conflict arises with what is Written the Word is right."
While you did place a proviso at the end, you were clearly claiming that these books supported your contention at #6 that "the Ten Tribes, (House of Israel) were taken by the Assrian King, North over the Caucasus Mountains, later into Europe," a claim unsupported by scripture.
Man and man's so called consensus, peer-review according to our Heavenly Father steals souls.Yes, that's true. However, that doesn't erase the problems with it.
Where did you get that list of sources, almost all of which are found in the Aryan Nations Catalog?
Consensus has its utility in matters on which the Bible is silent, such as the current whereabouts of the descendents of the Ten Lost Tribes.
The real thief of souls quoted scripture to Christ in the desert, while twisting its meaning.
You have quoted scripture and twisted its meaning to reach conclusions that are neither explicit nor implicit in the text. In doing so, you've landed squarely in the camp of Kingdom Identity Ministries and the Aryan Nations, even to the point of citing the same corroborating sources they have to reach the same nonscriptural conclusions.
Swordmaker,
This comment is very revealing considering the tenacity you've displayed spewing YOUR opinion.
Classic narcissism.
BINGO! ..."an exaggerated sense of self-importance."
Do you suppose it is because so many very large institutions are built on a foundation of sand? If not, why should they worry so? The winds of change have begun blowing again putting every house of cards in peril.
I have no idea what ALS's thoughts on non-magnetic stainless-steel are. Why don't you enlighten me since you seem to follow him around so often :)
Thanks for the fuzzy welcome to the discussion. I had no idea that you were so concerned for my whereabouts. I'm flattered, really.
I think I have SUCCESSFULLY discredited Capt by showing him to be a liar... not by showing "he didn't go to college." The substantial, checkable things he listed in his own book jacket biography do NOT CHECK OUT. Ergo, the man is not reliable in anything he claims or says.
You are locked in your dogma. I will not dispute you on that... but the support for your theory, other than your interpretation of scripture, comes from sites that are promoting a racist agenda: the establishment of "Caucasians" as being the true inheritors of God's Chosen People.
On the previously thread on this topic, those pushing this "Lost Tribes are Celtic" claptrap also expanded their argument to include that the Jews inhabiting Israel today are NOT TRUE DESCENDANTS of Abraham but rather "Turkish" interlopers who merely CLAIM to be the descendants. Their claimed source? Capt, again, of course.
Exactly what is the agenda here? It is to delegitimize the Jewish claim to the Levantine area some call "Palestine" and to elevate the Caucasoid race as the true, and only, inheritors of the Kingdom of God. Why do you think they call themselves "Christian Identity?" It is because they "Identify" themselves as the only true inheritors of God.
Ignoring Christ's commandment, who was to be taught Christ first, leaves a big hole in what you claim to know. Further reading lets us know how receptive those "ten tribes" would be in being Christians.
Apparently you think we should spend our time seeking out the Lost Tribes so that we can proseletize them BEFORE evangelizing anyone else. Sorry, if that were the case, seeing as how it is now 2000 years later, and we are still looking for them, the teaching of Christ to the world would still be waiting for you to find them.
Proverbs 21:24
The proud and arrogant man-"Mocker" is his name; he behaves with overweening pride.
Isaiah 29:20
The ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear, and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down-
Proverbs 1:22
"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?
Job 21:3
Bear with me while I speak, and after I have spoken, mock on.
Proverbs 3:34
He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.
Proverbs 9:7
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.
Proverbs 9:8
Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.
Proverbs 9:12
If you are wise, your wisdom will reward you; if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer."
Proverbs 13:1
A wise son heeds his father's instruction, but a mocker does not listen to rebuke.
Proverbs 14:6
The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.
Proverbs 15:12
A mocker resents correction; he will not consult the wise.
Proverbs 19:25
Flog a mocker, and the simple will learn prudence; rebuke a discerning man, and he will gain knowledge.
Proverbs 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.
Proverbs 21:11
When a mocker is punished, the simple gain wisdom; when a wise man is instructed, he gets knowledge.
Proverbs 22:10
Drive out the mocker, and out goes strife; quarrels and insults are ended.
Proverbs 24:9
The schemes of folly are sin, and men detest a mocker.
Proverbs 29:8
Mockers stir up a city, but wise men turn away anger.
Proverbs 30:17
"The eye that mocks a father, that scorns obedience to a mother, will be pecked out by the ravens of the valley, will be eaten by the vultures.
Isaiah 28:22
Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier; the Lord, the LORD Almighty, has told me of the destruction decreed against the whole land.
Isaiah 57:4
Whom are you mocking? At whom do you sneer and stick out your tongue? Are you not a brood of rebels, the offspring of liars?
So are you the one who sent the list to the "Christian Identity"?
Given you only have one track in your mind I will try one last time.No, of course not. Now how about some direct answers from you?
Why is there such a strong correlation between your beliefs about the Ten Tribes and your sources supporting those beliefes, and the Aryan Nations Catalog?
Where did you get your reading list?
The "ten tribes" were taken captive by the Assryian King.
This group of people in their captivity were taken north....
You have ignored that I said that unless and until the body of Jacob/Israel was used for DNA that no one can claim legally to be from Jacob/Israel.I've read your story. We agree on this much. The rest of your account is without foundation, save from fringe sources and a twisted reading of scripture.
It's interesting that at #6, you were so quick to dismiss Kurdish Jews, "there is no proof or basis to claim that the Kurdish Jews are the Ten Tribes."
Do you know where Kurdistan is?
Now, consider that map in the light of the acknowledged fact that the Israelite captives of the Ten Tribes were taken North by the Assyrian king.
Here are a couple of maps of the Assyrian Empire:
Now, consider that Kurdistan is to the North of Israel, on the Northernmost periphery of the Assyrian Empire. Consider also the genetic findings about Kurdish Jews cited by the original article:
A particularly intriguing case illustrating this is that of the Kurdish Jews, said to be the descendants of the Ten Tribes of Israel who were exiled in 723 BCE. to the area known today as Kurdistan, located in Northern Iraq, Iran and Eastern Turkey. They continued to live there as a separate entity until their immigration to Israel in the 1950s. The Kurdish Jews of today show a much greater affinity to their fellow Jews elsewhere than to the Kurdish Moslems.
Are the Kurdish Jews a remnant of one or some of the Lost Tribes? It's certainly possible, as they fit not only the scriptural description and have the right genes, but also have linguistic support for this claim...
Aramaic was born in Mesopotamia (present-day Iraq) at least 3,500 years ago. It was the language spoken by the patriarch Abraham, and served as a trade language among the various peoples of the ancient Middle East, very much like English does today.
In a phenomenal wave of expansion, Aramaic spread to Israel and Syria and large tracts of Asia and Egypt, replacing many languages, including Akkadian and Hebrew. For about 1,000 years, it served as the official and written language of the Near East, officially beginning with the conquests of the Assyrian Empire, which had adopted Aramaic as its official language.
The earliest known inscriptions in Aramaic date back to the ninth century B.C.E. Parts of the biblical books of Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra were written in Aramaic, as was the Talmud.
By the time of the later Chaldean and Persian conquests, Aramaic had become the closest thing to an international language. Despite Hellenistic influences that followed the conquests of Alexander the Great, Aramaic remained the vernacular of the conquered peoples in the Holy Land, Syria, Mesopotamia and the adjacent countries. It eventually ceded linguistic supremacy in the region to Arabic in the ninth century C.E.
As a result, the Assyrians boast that this was the spoken language during the times of Jesus.
"Modern" Aramaic is very different from the ancient language. It has a western version and an eastern one.
The western dialect is still used in three villages in Syria, where people use the language not only for prayer but for everyday life. This is the only place in the world where the language is still alive.
The eastern dialect was used in the northeastern corner of Iraq, where it borders Iran, Turkey and Russia; this is the dialect used by Kurdish Jews in Israel.
LINKAlso...
The Talmud holds that Jewish deportees were settled in Kurdistan 2800 years ago by the Assyrian king Shalmaneser Ill (r. 858-824 BC).
LINKScholars, such as Yitzhak Ben Zvi, the second President of Israel, regarded the Jews of Kurdistan as the ""Lost" ones in the Land of Assyria (Isaiah 27:13), or: "The only tribe to preserve a 2700 year-old tradition, the traces of a most ancient stratum in the history of Israel, recalling in nature the people of the First Temple Period" (1963:74).
LINKThroughout the Middle East, smaller communities of Jews, Christians and Baha'is also consider themselves Kurds. Israel's 150,000 Kurds constitute the greatest concentration of these non-Muslim groups. The Kurdish Jews emigrated to Israel in the 1950s, having lived in Mesopotamia since the Assyrian exile: "The king of Assyria carried the Israelites away to Assyria, settled them in Halah, on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." (2 Kings 18:11)
LINKIf, in the light of all of this, you're not prepared to accept a Lost Tribe origing for Kurdish Jews, that's fine. I'm not necessarily convinced either. However, the range of sources I've provided from a number of different disciplines does call into question your statement that "there is no proof or basis to claim that the Kurdish Jews are the Ten Tribes."
Since there is certainly some basis for the Kurdish claim you are clearly in error on that point, so you may want to reconsider others you have made, and the sources on which you've based your claims.
I have as much credibility in what I have said as you have in pushing your own agenda. Yet you think yourself clever in trying to make the subject about idiots that wrap themselves in others writings.No, I've pointed out twice on this thread, at #178 and #244, that your thinking here betrays a lack of knowledge about genetics. One doesn't need the genetic material of the parent to demonstrate a kinship between progeny. This is true even if that parent is a Patriarch who has been dead for some 4,000 years.
Even if you don't believe that Kurdish Jews are a Lost Tribe remnant, genetic analysis, as this thread's article states, has established a kinship with other Jews that spans thousands of years of separation.
This is quite an ironic application of relativism to the truth, as you've wrapped yourself in those same questionable writings to come to many of the same conclusions as those whom you call "idiots."
You are proclaiming your credibility while denying that of groups to whom you've made yourself intellectually bound. The truth is that one can explore this subject without believing what Arayan Nations and Christian Identity groups are promoting.
The whereabouts of the Ten Lost Tribes is of interest to archaeologists, anthropologists, ethnologists, linguists, Christians and Jews. There is a great deal of information acumulated, and more is discovered all the time.
Here's a list of some worthwhile links to websites about the possible identities and locations of the Lost Tribes in which efforts are made to reconcile genetic, linguistic, cultural, Historical, and scriptural evidence....
The Cohanim Modal Haplotype The CMH Tool Discovery
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References
A. Here are links to the five original scientific articles (in chronological order):
1. The original study of the Jewish Priests: "Y-Chromosomes of Jewish Priests", by M. F. Hammer, Karl Skorecki, et al. (Nature, 385:32, 1997)
2. The second article expanding upon the discovery: "Origins of Old Testament Priests" by Karl Skorecki, David Goldstein, M. G. Thomas, et al. (Nature, 394:138-140, 1998)
3. The third article, applying the discovery for the first time to a population claiming to be "of the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel" (but without further proof than tribal traditions and stories): "Y chromosomes traveling south: the Cohen modal Haplotype and the origin of the Lemba - the 'Black Jews of Southern Africa'" by M. G. Thomas, et al. (American Journal of Human Genetics, 66:674-86, February 2000)
4. A much broader study of population genetics of some of the same Middle Eastern populations (and by some of the same authors) "Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes" by M. F. Hammer et. al. (Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol 97, Issue 12, 6769-6774, June 6, 2000)
5. And, more recently, there is a failed attempt to discredit the above articles (that actually adds much useful information expanding and confirming the discovery): "Are today's Jewish Priests descended from the old ones" by Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin, Ph.D. (HOMO: Journal of Comparative Human Biology - Zeitschrift fuer vergleichende Biologie des Menschen, Vol. 53, No. 2-3, 2000, pg. 156-162).
It is not yet available freely online. There is a good report about it at: http://www.ariga.com/genes.htm.
B. As research continues, new scientific papers are published. Here are several recent ones:
1. "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East" by Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, and Ariella Oppenheim [The American Journal of Human Genetics 69:5 (November 2001): 1095-1112].
2. "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews" by Almut Nebel1, Dvora Filon, Deborah A. Weiss, Michael Weale, Marina Faerman, Ariella Oppenheim, and Mark G. Thomas [Human Genetics 107(6) (December 2000): 630-641].
C. In addition, there are several nice programs online about this same general topic:
1. Here is a nice program about the Hebrew Ten Lost Tribes:
"Mystery of the Ten Lost Tribes"
This program features the work of the predicted king (who is predicted to find the famous Hebrew Ten Lost Tribes).
2. Here is a nice NOVA program about the Hebrew Ten Lost Tribes:
"Lost Tribes of Israel"
This program features Dr. Tudor Parfitt (an anthropologist)[director of the Center for Jewish Studies at the School for Oriental and African Studies in London] and his fascinating detective work study of the Lemba tribe (placed into a recent book by him: Journey to the Vanished City (Phoenix, London)).That's just the tip of the iceberg. The Ten Lost Tribes are an interesting subject. You should consider availing yourself of more information than just the theories promoted by Aryan Nations and Christian Identity groups.
Do you suppose it is because so many very large institutions are built on a foundation of sand? If not, why should they worry so? The winds of change have begun blowing again putting every house of cards in peril.
Can you elaborate on this a little?
What are the very large institutions that are built on foundations of sand?
What are the houses of cards that are imperiled by the winds of change?
What exactly are these "wind of change?"Thanks in advance.
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