Suit: Sun fired US workers to hire lower-paid Indians

Boston Globe ^ | March 18, 2003 | Hiawatha Bray

[sarcasm]

The lawsuit, for which class-action status is being sought, is certain to intensify an already fierce debate between technology companies and American engineers over the future of the H-1B visa program. Such visas let companies temporarily bring foreign workers into the United States.

[BnBlFlag]

Are the Indians Apaches or Comanches?

[Steel and Fire and Stone]

Old white guys with bad polyester pants maintaining crappy old mainframe code are sitting ducks for cost reductions

That's a fallacy with a bunch of innuendo. I know lots of guys white, black, brown, perhaps with a mainframe background, but also experts in complex, multi-tier Java/Oracle/Sun based software (ok..ok.. some Microsoft technology guys too..). The only thing they have in common is that they've worked 30 years to get ahead in their industry, and they're being replaced by folks who are in-effect, indentured servants.

If it's fine for the U.S. Government to beg the world to take the jobs of the anglosaxon guys in polyester pants, why should we stop there? How 'bout we bring in a bunch of young Irish kids to work for $15,000 a year as school teachers? They'd love the work, and would provide a first class education.

How 'bout police, firemen, just about all civil service jobs.. we can get college educated foreign workers to take these jobs too, and IMAGINE how much money we all can say. All the government has to do is provide a free Visa which is worth about $40,000, PLUS guarantee the workers won't exhibit any independence for about 5-7 years while they wait for their green cards.

Why is it that American computer professionals, the one's who BUILD THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY HERE IN THE US, why should they alone be the target of a job-replacement scheme?

The truth is that this is an industry wide practice. It's not the nationality, and companies don't always save that much money, but in a highly competitive industry like software and hardware systems, how much is it worth to have a workforce that is non-mobile, that will be there no matter how badly they are abused (i.e. 3 workers to a cube, 60-90 hours per week, pay kick-backs, etc.).

My 14 year old son is a talented web designer. I started teaching him the business from the professional side a few years ago. But I told him this year to forget it. There's no future in software development or support. It's all being outsourced overseas.. computer professionals are now a comodity. I'm sure I'm not alone. How many kids in college will go $100,000 into debt (or how many parents will foot the bill) for the prospect of earning $40-60K in ten years?! That's where the market is heading.. in fact, it's already just about there.

FReegards, SFS.

[Glenn]

Sorry, but software has a shelf-life. "Dusty deck" systems are a failure of IT management to figure out when to replace old stuff:

You specifically attacked greying programmers and engineers -- not software. Now you want to shift blame to IT management. You're a real sharp shooter when it comes to knowing things, right? If only management would listen to you, it would be a perfect world? Spare me. You sound like the typical genXer. Instant answers to complex questions without consideration for the consequences or impact on business. You swallow the whole loaf of bread at once types amaze me.

[grania]

Companies say that H-1B visas provide well-trained workers who have skills that are hard to find in the domestic labor force. But US workers say that at a time of high unemployment among American engineers and computer programmers, the H-1B program is mainly being used to bring in cheaper workers from overseas

Do you really think that there are no US workers to fill these jobs? In the Boston area, the problem is immense. Very well qualified techies, who in many cases put systems in place, are losing their jobs to Indian workers.

The H-1B visa program was supposed to be used to fill worker shortages. Qualified US workers should be allowed to claim those jobs filled by foreign labor, and those laborers should be sent home. There is no shortage. Face it.

[doosee]

There's no future in software development or support

You got it. I am a lifelong ITer. I counseled every one of my kids to NOT major in Comp. Sci. One of the best bits of advice I ever gave. The industry is facing ruin at least on the domestic front.

[grania]

I thought it was us over-50s who rejected polyester!! Can't wait to hear the kids when they start losing their jobs, too.

[Steel and Fire and Stone]

Agreed, re: consultant companies. I'm no virgin. I know the score. But this guy was not making a move directed by EY management. He was running his own little scam, at least, that's what some friends told me. (95% of the folks I've worked with in the past 10 years have been foreign nations. I have loads of them as close friends.)

I have nothing against folks from overseas coming here for opportunity. But the way the government has set up the system, it only benefits the "job shop" companies and software houses. I'd rather they just open the door. I'm willing to take on anyone in an interview from overseas, providing he has to take the personal risks to fund his travel the the USA. The "job shops" can dictate who gets the interview. Companies will only hire via job shops, because of the IRS and labor laws which are anti-small-business contractor.

Long, long story.. and I'm too tired to discuss this further.

FReegards, SFS

[Steel and Fire and Stone]

Very well qualified techies, who in many cases put systems in place, are losing their jobs to Indian workers.

Example: Friend of mine in his 40's, 15 years experience in Oracle-related technology, as a Business Analyst, and Business development specialist. He's an ex-military pilot, and military academy graduate. This guy is as sharp as they come. He's been out of work half of the past 4 years, and has been "underemployed" when working. There is NO REASON IN THE WORLD why this guy shouldn't have career position in middle-technical management, other than his age, nationality, and the fact that he has a wife and five kids who live on the CALIFORNIA economy, not a third-world economy.

The "white guys" (referenced by a FReeper in an earlier post) whose careers are being deliberately ruined by our government policies (and short-sighted American firms) are the Little League Coaches, Boy Scout Troop leaders, the Dad's (or Mom's), the "best and brightest" of the past 30 years, who are responsible for building the America we now have. Hard to focus on family or community service when you're career is in constant flux.

[taxed2death]

I wonder how these American citizens like the fact that their tax dollars support programs to put them out of work?

Globalization.....coming to a town near you!


Thank you Klintoon.

Thank you El Presedente' Jorge Bush.

It will only end when the American middle class is completely decimated.

[Orangedog]

Congress won't do anyting until the US engineering profession is decimated...

Remember that next time you hear people b*tching because there are few American students majoring in math and engineering. There isn't much incentive to study in a challenging field knowing that most of the US companies will import overseas engineers because they work for half they pay and no benefits.

[eno_]

It's a complex picture. India's elite are really really elite. Getting into the top schools is 10X more competitive there.

But India also supplies armies of seat-warmers to consultancies. India's second-tier universities crank 'em out by the trainload.

I have also seen firsthand Chinese and Indian managers hiring relatives for jobs where they are totally useless in. I've seen, literally, half-toothless Chinese peasants sitting at desks, collecting pay, and doing NOTHING. Basically, the hiring managers are bringing third-world corruption to U.S. companies that often can't even figure out it is happening.

[FITZ]

and they're being replaced by folks who are in-effect, indentured servants.

Yes --because if the Indian programmers were so great, they wouldn't be paying them LESS money, they pay them at least the same. It's all about money, the CEOs like it more than anything else, definitely more than this country.

[FITZ]

I doubt that India has much of an affirmative action program ---or so much political correctness in their public schools. If Americans must compete with third world countries, we need to end all the government incentives against trying hard.

[eno_]

It goes both ways. Let me tell you about interviewing $170k/yr. stuffed shirts that go on about 50 person 24 month projects that spent 18 months before the first code was written, how they are Rational ROSE studs, etc. - anything but freakin' coding!

I don't need that.

[EdReform]

Get the Facts on Foreign Worker Visas:

H-1B Hall of Shame

[Poohbah]

Mind you, I believe it should be criminal to displace American workers with foreign workers unless the company has moved that area of business entirely outside of our borders.

They may very well decide to do that.

Code is becoming a commodity item.

[eno_]

Ding ding ding! This is the winner: When the tax and regulatory burden is lower in China, where the party of government is still officially COMMUNIST, what the heck does it mean that we have a supposedly "capitalist" system?

Russia has a flat tax, by the way. In Singapore, entrepeneurialism is almost the official religion. If we ran our government according to our Constitution - if we brought our tax and regulatory burdens back down to pre-New Deal levels, we would kick ass and nobody would have to worry about "them damn ferriners takin' ours jobs."

One poster asked "what about all those government workers?" No, don't outsource them, FIRE 80% of them and let us keep what we earn. That's what will keep people employed in productive jobs here. It was Clinton who promoted the 100,000 new cops thing. Get a clue: cops are now like public school teahcers - unionized tools of PC.

[Jumper]

What I think is that all the western countries, e.g., Germany, Holland, Belguim, France, and the US have all made a concerted decision to do several things to this end. We have created a system whereby qualified foreigners can come to the US and take some of the wage pressure off employers. We have created a system which will attract the best and brightest from other nations, thereby deminishing the democrat pool.

If one views it through protectionist eyewear, they will only see the negatives. I for one see the glass more than half full in this instance. To all allow people to stay in their native countries and enrich the economies in direct competition with our own is stupid over the long run. As a Systems Administrator I know full well that there are too many overpaid "professionals" around me.... My point is that Americans in the IT field have been well paid for a long time and the ROI is just not always there; Americans should give more value to their employers or else they have succumbed to the "socialist theory of employment", e.g., that they are entitled without competition to their lifestyles.

[Beck_isright]

"HP tech support"

Isn't that an oxymoron?