Austria Formally Declares War on Servia; Russia Moving Troops; Peace of Europe In Kaiser's Hands

NewYorkTimes ^ | July 28, 1914 | Special Cable

[crazykatz]

weikel-wonky,

PROVE your historical claims!! It should be easy for such a "brain" as you. teehee!

Primary source documentation, please...that is all we ask....can't you find some proof SOMEWHERE????? huh???

By the way....I am not afraid of your little buddy....nobody on FR is!!

[crazykatz]

Just in case you forgot...THE ALLIES won....your boys lost!!

That is all that matters to me anyway...my Granddaddy was an aide to General Pershing....ask me IF I care about your LOSERS!!

[Goetz_von_Berlichingen]

Prince Bismarck opined that the Balkans are "not worth the healthy bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier." I tend to concur. Europe would have been much happier if Austria-Hungary had not attempted to play the policeman in the Serbo-Croatian domestic disturbance. As any cop will tell you, the officer responding to such a call is in danger from BOTH parties.

Nationalism has always been a very destructive disease. It is merely a half step removed from racism and, when taken to its logical consequence, can lead to genocide. The various nationalisms that have affected the Balkans are of a particularly virulent nature, so that people who are genetically identical have developed pretexts for murdering each other that resemble nothing so much as the Liliputian war over which end of an egg should be cracked.

I am now about to violate the Biblical injunction: "Answer not the fool according to his folly."

[weikel]

Yeah they won and left the commies in charge of Russia and removed the Holhenzollrens in Germany setting the stage for every historical bad thing since. Perhaps you don't get this Woodrow Wilson was a COMMUNIST he wanted to promote communism worldwide thats why he intervened at the last minute and saved the allies asses with the phony Zimmerman telegram forgery. My Grandad was an aide to General Macarthur btw but he died when my father was 6 so I don't know too much about him( and I can't find too much on him historically other than his exact date of death).

[weikel]

But why did Russia have to interfere in favor of the Serbs. Thats what activated the alliance system and caused the war which spread the plague of communism and Democracy across some foremerly conservative civilizations.

[Goetz_von_Berlichingen]

"Just in case you forgot...THE ALLIES won....your boys lost!! That is all that matters to me anyway"

You forgot to add the "neener, neener!"

Victory in war, as in politics, is hardly an affirmation that the winning side was somehow morally superior to the losers. Otherwise, we would still have judicial trial by combat. Some of the more notorious winners throughout history have been the Mongols and the Huns. More recently, there are the Chinese Communists, who have never lost a war, and the Soviets who not only defeated the Tsarists, but also won World War II. And, need I point out who won the Viet-Nam war?

There are few major current problems in European history that cannot be traced back ultimately to the Versailles Treaty. If you include the breakup of the Ottoman Empire in that result, then even modern Arab terrorism can be traced to Anglo-French support for independent Arab states.

England's envious vendetta against German wealth and success led to the weakening and destruction of its own empire, with Eire only the first of the slave races to throw off Albion's yoke. And the Irish Republicans had been, in fact if not in form, allies of Germany and thus "losers" of WW I.

Austria-Hungary was dismembered, ostensibly to benefit it's subject peoples, but in reality as the culmination of the French vendetta against the Habsburgs that can be traced back to Louis XIII and Richelieu. History wrought its revenge for this by allowing each of the small states thus created to fall either to the Communists or to the Fascists. Slavic separatists had often claimed that the old empire was "the prison house of nations" where peoples of diverse ethnicities were imprisoned in violation of their best interests. And yet, what is CEFTA other than a voluntary economic rebirth of the Austro-Hungarian empire?

In the Far East, Japan was also among the winners, and its victory set it on its path to the creation of the "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere." So, the Japanese were the good guys in 1918 and the bad guys in 1941?

And whether "we" as American citizens won WW I is highly dubious. It was not the American people, but the American government, that won the war. Wilson cynically used his foreign agenda to drive his domestic agenda, including the suppression of legitimate dissent, the expansion of federal powers, and -- best of all -- the income tax.

History is showing more and more clearly with each passing year that the wrong side won the First World War.

[Goetz_von_Berlichingen]

One way to think about it: who would you rather see in charge of Mecca and the oil fields, the Saudis or the Turks? Who is a better friend to the U.S. in Europe, the French or the Germans?

[weikel]

The chinese communist lost a war to the NVA shortly after we did( the Vietnamese communist they have never lost a war).

[weikel]

History is showing more and more clearly with each passing year that the wrong side won the First World War.

Right on it needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

[MinorityRepublican]

One way to think about it: who would you rather see in charge of Mecca and the oil fields, the Saudis or the Turks? Who is a better friend to the U.S. in Europe, the French or the Germans?

Kind of funny, huh? I saw the movie, Lawrence of Arabia recently, and I cannot just bring myself to support the Arabs because I know what happens a hundred years after the Great War.

Europe would have been better off if Germany won the war, probably, IMHO.

[weikel]

The whole world would have been better off. Hitler would have never risen no WWII no cold war. Monarchy instead of Democracy would be the main form of government in the civilized world( and monarchy is better than mob rule monarchs have more of a stake in their countries).

[MinorityRepublican]

The whole world would have been better off. Hitler would have never risen no WWII no cold war. Monarchy instead of Democracy would be the main form of government in the civilized world( and monarchy is better than mob rule monarchs have more of a stake in their countries).

Also, Germany would be more scientific, and technology advanced. Socialism infected all of Europe, including Germany. Sadly, there's not a way to recover from it anytime soon.

[weikel]

Russia looks promising today I think communism inoculated it against socialism of any kind. The continent except for Italy( which has for once elected a right wing government and has allowed the house of Savoy to return) seems lost to the evil commie EU.

[crazykatz]

The ALLIES WON!! German and Austria lost!!

I couldn't care less about Russia or Serbia in all this. I am HIGHLY offended by folks who blame everybody for WWI but those GERMANIC LOSERS who really picked the fight in the first place!!

My Granddad was in a wonderful ticker tape parade in NYC, losers do NOT get VICTORY PARADES or MEDALS!! He spoke about it till the day of his death. Just like his Dad before him and his son to follow, he was a career Army officer and he was happy and proud to serve his country.

Folks like you, using GERMAN sounding names....come here an spout such milarky about AMERICANS not really winning. THAT is PURE JUNK...liberal-socialist revisionist history.

You cannot ever convince me the Allies lost....and Granddad would have popped you in the head for being so disrespectful of the his men...THEY DID NOT LOSE....THEY WON!! They fought hard and they WON!!

Got it??? He was on the winning side...PERIOD!! He was proud of it!!

I have his WWI Medals right here in my house....and pictures of him on his horse while serving in France.

[MinorityRepublican]

Russia looks promising today I think communism inoculated it against socialism of any kind. The continent except for Italy( which has for once elected a right wing government and has allowed the house of Savoy to return) seems lost to the evil commie EU.

You're right. I'm so jealous of their 13% flat tax!

But the Russians got to have much more kids than they are having right now.

Also, they need to lay off the vodka.

Other than that, Russia probably has more of a promising future than the United States of America.

[branicap]

"play the policeman in Serbo-roatian domestic disturbance..."

I have a problem,Goetz!How can I enjoy a intelligent debate with you or youre proGerman mate,weikel,when you both obviously,don`t have a clue about the subject???It dimishes effort of other posters on the thread ,and in some cases is nothing but insulting!You ,mine herr,wouldnt survive any historical conference,even the amateurish one!

Why?

First of all,AUSTRIA DID NOT,i REPEAT FOR BOTH OFF YOU,DID NOT "PLAY THE POLICENAN IN THE SERBO-CROAT DISPUTE"!!!There was no Serbo-Croat dispute at first place!

LEARN THE BASICS FIRST!So,let me help you:

Since 1878 Serbia was forced to be an Austrian client state.Austrian baron Hirsch was given a concession for the railroads(corridors Xand VIII),Austria was a main trade partner,dinasty of Obrenovich was under their control to!Then,two things happened:in 1903 a group of officers led by Col.Dimitrijevich had assasinated Serbian King M.Obrenovich and his wife Draga Mashin.For various reasons:Draga Mashin was despised among the Serbian elite as a woman of "doubious morals"(untrue) ,just like Mrs.Simpson and King Edvartd!Secondly,she was,allegedly,barren and couldn`t produce a keir to the throne!True,but King M.Obrenovich was to blame ,because,while gambling and whoring in casinos of Baden Baden he had contracted sifilis and as a resoult of late and unsuccesfull therapy he had became sterile!Furthermore,Serbs also resented increased German-Austrian influence and dictat!So they were killed and old,previous dinasty Karadjorgevich was reestablished.They were in exile in Russia.That was the end of the Austrian domination in Serbian political life.Then,Austria,contrary to the Berlin Treaty,had anexed Bosnia(1908)and imposed sanctions on Serbia for trying to excercise some indenpendence in choosing her economic partners!(read again my p[ost No70)

Austro-Hungarian Empire was old and rotten,just as much as Ottoman Empire was,and was in decline.many nations within wanted their freedom(concept of freedom looks strange to you two?!)or,at least,a new accomodation within empire!Serbian indenpendence was a "bad precident"for the rest of the balkans and had to be dealth with!"You shoud deal with that nest of vipers (Serbia) as soon as possible" was the German advice to the Austrian High Command!It wasn`t Serbia who was belligerent and looking for war(against a giant) 9 months after the end of the Second Balkan War!Austria knew that Serbs are tired and militarily egzausted and "RIPE FOR PICKING".That`s why they have staged manouvers in Bosnia to intimidate Serbia with a demonstration of military might on her borders,and,most probably,invade,1915 the latest!Princip&Co changed everything!

Assasination of the Ferdinand was by every measure a crime,no metter what reason or a grudge assasins had!Murder of the Ferdinand`s wife Sofia was worst but,was unintentional.Princip was just a tenager and as the rest of them ,a poore shot,and killed them both!Sadly,he had a Serbian unification in his "idealistic head" but,the finall resault was desastrous for the Serbs:40% of the male population of military age killed country ravaged by war and desease....Military victories in 1914 and 1918 and"glory" are insignificant,in my opinion,for the health of that cursed nation!

I must agree that what is happening today in Europe is very simmilar to the intentions of some empires in 20th century!But,herr Goetz,difference is in principle:if I want to join EU or some other alliance I want to do that volountarily,on my own free will,not under German boot and a gun!I hope that you appritiate the difference!BTW Napoleon tried that in 1800- "sword in one hand and civil code in another" and had to go to war with,almost everybody in Europe!

Weikel,just a small reminder:that fine lady,crazykatz had described you propperly in her #50 post!"Pan-Slavic crap???" Correct me if I am wrong:germany as a state is a "newcomer",right?Created in 1870 or close by a unification of dozens of German kingdoms and tribes!On what basis or idea.my dear?ON A PAN-GERMAN IDEA,WEIKEL,AND I DON`T CALL IT CRAPP!To much blood and racism in German mytology for my taste.

I am sorry that Germans and Co lost two world wars,I am surre that world would be a better place if you guys had won both!I wouldn`t have a problem with my mate Barry Zimmerman(a dirty Jew!),ows me money!He wouldn`t be alive today,nither his parents!I wouldn`t be typing in the early morning on my lap-top,because,I would be barely literate,and being of Slavic orrigin wouldn`t be an educated intellectual but a labourer...but,well never know now!

Tropoljac,stop your ustashe propaganda,please.If you have a brain(you do)don`t let your hatred for everything Serbian diminish your thinking abilities.After all,we`re disscussing WWI here not 1991.Unfortunately,you lost that one fighting with Austria.No pun intended.

As far as you two German gentlamen are concerned,if you cant produce a post based on facts and some knowlege and not wishfull thinking ,than,I`m afraid,to parafrase a great german Chancelor:

"Your posts are not worth a single line of intelligent response!"