I have a problem,Goetz!How can I enjoy a intelligent debate with you or youre proGerman mate,weikel,when you both obviously,don`t have a clue about the subject???It dimishes effort of other posters on the thread ,and in some cases is nothing but insulting!You ,mine herr,wouldnt survive any historical conference,even the amateurish one!
Why?
First of all,AUSTRIA DID NOT,i REPEAT FOR BOTH OFF YOU,DID NOT "PLAY THE POLICENAN IN THE SERBO-CROAT DISPUTE"!!!There was no Serbo-Croat dispute at first place!
LEARN THE BASICS FIRST!So,let me help you:
Since 1878 Serbia was forced to be an Austrian client state.Austrian baron Hirsch was given a concession for the railroads(corridors Xand VIII),Austria was a main trade partner,dinasty of Obrenovich was under their control to!Then,two things happened:in 1903 a group of officers led by Col.Dimitrijevich had assasinated Serbian King M.Obrenovich and his wife Draga Mashin.For various reasons:Draga Mashin was despised among the Serbian elite as a woman of "doubious morals"(untrue) ,just like Mrs.Simpson and King Edvartd!Secondly,she was,allegedly,barren and couldn`t produce a keir to the throne!True,but King M.Obrenovich was to blame ,because,while gambling and whoring in casinos of Baden Baden he had contracted sifilis and as a resoult of late and unsuccesfull therapy he had became sterile!Furthermore,Serbs also resented increased German-Austrian influence and dictat!So they were killed and old,previous dinasty Karadjorgevich was reestablished.They were in exile in Russia.That was the end of the Austrian domination in Serbian political life.Then,Austria,contrary to the Berlin Treaty,had anexed Bosnia(1908)and imposed sanctions on Serbia for trying to excercise some indenpendence in choosing her economic partners!(read again my p[ost No70)
Austro-Hungarian Empire was old and rotten,just as much as Ottoman Empire was,and was in decline.many nations within wanted their freedom(concept of freedom looks strange to you two?!)or,at least,a new accomodation within empire!Serbian indenpendence was a "bad precident"for the rest of the balkans and had to be dealth with!"You shoud deal with that nest of vipers (Serbia) as soon as possible" was the German advice to the Austrian High Command!It wasn`t Serbia who was belligerent and looking for war(against a giant) 9 months after the end of the Second Balkan War!Austria knew that Serbs are tired and militarily egzausted and "RIPE FOR PICKING".That`s why they have staged manouvers in Bosnia to intimidate Serbia with a demonstration of military might on her borders,and,most probably,invade,1915 the latest!Princip&Co changed everything!
Assasination of the Ferdinand was by every measure a crime,no metter what reason or a grudge assasins had!Murder of the Ferdinand`s wife Sofia was worst but,was unintentional.Princip was just a tenager and as the rest of them ,a poore shot,and killed them both!Sadly,he had a Serbian unification in his "idealistic head" but,the finall resault was desastrous for the Serbs:40% of the male population of military age killed country ravaged by war and desease....Military victories in 1914 and 1918 and"glory" are insignificant,in my opinion,for the health of that cursed nation!
I must agree that what is happening today in Europe is very simmilar to the intentions of some empires in 20th century!But,herr Goetz,difference is in principle:if I want to join EU or some other alliance I want to do that volountarily,on my own free will,not under German boot and a gun!I hope that you appritiate the difference!BTW Napoleon tried that in 1800- "sword in one hand and civil code in another" and had to go to war with,almost everybody in Europe!
Weikel,just a small reminder:that fine lady,crazykatz had described you propperly in her #50 post!"Pan-Slavic crap???" Correct me if I am wrong:germany as a state is a "newcomer",right?Created in 1870 or close by a unification of dozens of German kingdoms and tribes!On what basis or idea.my dear?ON A PAN-GERMAN IDEA,WEIKEL,AND I DON`T CALL IT CRAPP!To much blood and racism in German mytology for my taste.
I am sorry that Germans and Co lost two world wars,I am surre that world would be a better place if you guys had won both!I wouldn`t have a problem with my mate Barry Zimmerman(a dirty Jew!),ows me money!He wouldn`t be alive today,nither his parents!I wouldn`t be typing in the early morning on my lap-top,because,I would be barely literate,and being of Slavic orrigin wouldn`t be an educated intellectual but a labourer...but,well never know now!
Tropoljac,stop your ustashe propaganda,please.If you have a brain(you do)don`t let your hatred for everything Serbian diminish your thinking abilities.After all,we`re disscussing WWI here not 1991.Unfortunately,you lost that one fighting with Austria.No pun intended.
As far as you two German gentlamen are concerned,if you cant produce a post based on facts and some knowlege and not wishfull thinking ,than,I`m afraid,to parafrase a great german Chancelor:
"Your posts are not worth a single line of intelligent response!"
I think that the Pro-German posters have offended a number of AMERICANS here on FR.They have certainly offended me.
The ALLIED VICTORY IN THE GREAT WAR is no myth.
American Cemetries in Europe and the number of monuments to OUR AMERICAN DEAD are NOT myths. I have laid a number of wreaths over the past 20 years at some Monuments to OUR dead from BOTH World Wars.
THESE ALLIED HEROES DID NOT DIE IN VAIN.
The pro-Germans could be likened to those "gamers" who sit around all the time and play those silly war games..."OH, WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE NAZIS HAD THE ATOMIC BOMB?" or "What if General Patton had been killed in Africa?"....blah! blah! blah!
Oh, and of course the all time classic...."WHAT IF THE SOUTH HAD WON THE CIVIL WAR?"
OH, PLEASE!!
Its over!! The ALLIES WON in both WWI and WWII....the rest, as they say is HISTORY!!