No no ... this ain't no "Prairie Chapel" ...
You find that down the road a few miles
(and mebbe a few years' time so's folks forget).
No harm done ... just move along and remember: "Don't Mess with Texas"
Posted on 11/26/2001 9:33:39 AM PST by Aerial
Waco Lies Revisited
"I do not think the United States government is responsible because a bunch of religious fanatics decided to kill themselves…"
~ Bill Clinton, April 20, 1993
"It all goes back to Waco" has become a frequent rejoinder in Libertarian circles and there is much merit to this profound sentiment. To many, the 1993 FBI-Delta Force assault on Mt. Carmel has come to symbolize the malign potential of the lawless state. Further, the February BATF raid and its deadly aftermath graphically articulated the worst fears of those who oppose the lethal convergence of police and military. Yet in a recent National Review On-Line (NRO) essay penned by Libertarian scholars Paul H. Blackman and David Kopel, the historical significance of this tragic event is inexplicably discarded.
Entitled "Waco Lessons for War," the November 6th editorial ostensibly urges Pentagon strategists to taken into account the strident Islamic beliefs which characterize Muslim terror groups. However, in the process of dispensing this advice, the two authors inadvertently rely on some of the more spurious government claims about the Branch Davidian religious sect.
While the discriminating researcher would be hard-pressed to equate a largely pacifistic spiritual community with Afghanistan’s ruthless Taliban fighters, Blackman and Kopel make little distinction between the two. Indeed, the essay draws a parallel between the battle-hardened Afghan rebels and the Davidians who are described as yet another group "sincerely devoted to do evil." With this sweeping generalization, a diverse congregation which included musicians, Biblical scholars, Harvard graduates, religious seekers, mothers, children, and senior citizens is transformed into a malevolent band of religious warriors.
In fact, readers are informed that the February 28 BATF raid on Mt. Carmel was repulsed because the Branch Davidians allegedly "fought with the zeal of martyrs" causing the most "humiliating defeat" in the agency’s history.
Not only does this grossly mischaracterize the nature of the February raid, but the use of the term "defeat" is highly disingenuous. This wasn’t a confrontation between two equal military forces, but an agency of the federal government seeking to search a private residence and arrest one individual: David Koresh. Nevertheless, Blackman and Kopel portray the religious group as a unique military entity with its own faith-based esprit de corps.
The fact that Koresh and his followers were tipped off to the impending the raid and failed to give themselves up is submitted as further evidence that the allegedly "evil" Davidians "fully expected to be massacred at the hands of ‘Babylon’ (the American government)." Kopel and Blackman substantiate this by citing the testimony of "apostate Branch Davidians" and ATF agents.
However, the vindictive opinions of disaffected church members and self-serving ATF agents cannot be considered credible sources of information and it’s surprising that Blackman and Kopel would even entertain such a notion – especially in light of their extensive knowledge of this particular topic.
A cursory examination of the evidence indicates that if anyone was preparing for a violent confrontation it was ATF. In the weeks leading up to the blundered raid, agency officials were openly soliciting the assistance of military officials and the use of the Army Urban Terrain facility at Ft. Hood, TX. It is now known that these tactical preparations directly contradicted the express wishes of then US Attorney William Johnston who, according to the Treasury Department report "informed ATF early in the investigation that he would not authorize a search warrant" for the Davidian property "if it was to be executed through a siege-style operation."
Without debating the question of whether or nor the arrest of Koresh was warranted, it is certainly not difficult to surmise that his apprehension by federal law enforcement needn’t have cost any lives. Texas firearms dealer Henry McMahon has repeatedly testified that the sectarian leader was well aware he was under investigation for violating federal firearms statutes and willingly offered to cooperate with ATF agents. Moreover, federal officials have yet to make a good faith explanation as to why Koresh wasn’t taken into custody during his daily jogging sessions or frequent trips into town.
His conciliatory relationship with local law enforcement provides further proof that the dynamic-entry raid was largely unwarranted. Indeed, even as helicopters buzzed the sky in the tension-filled moments before the ATF arrived, Davidian Survivor Clive Doyle has testified that Koresh remained committed to resolving the matter peacefully. "He wanted everybody to remain calm, go back to their rooms, just stay cool" as "he would go down to the front door and talk" Doyle recalls. 911 transcripts of deceased Davdian Wayne Martin’s repeated requests for government agents to cease hostilities certainly undermine Kopel and Blackman’s assertion that the "Davidians intended to become martyrs and enter heaven":
Wayne Martin (WM): "Yeah there’s 75 men around our building and they’re shootin’ at us at Mt. Carmel!
911 Operator: Mt. Carmel?
WM: Yeah, tell em’ there’re women and children here and to call ‘em off!
911 Operator: I hear gunfire who is this?
WM: It’s Wayne!
911 Operator: Wayne…tell me what’s happening Wayne.
WM: We got women and children in danger.
911 Operator: Wayne?
WM: I’m under fire…tell ‘em to call if off!
911 Operator: What?
Wayne Martin: Tell em’ to pull back…I have the right to defend myself. They started firing first!
~ Excerpted from Waco: The Rules of Engagement,
1997, COPS Productions
As the 911 tape suggests, bringing an end to the shooting and protecting lives was a primary concern among members of the controversial religious community. This is reinforced by the testimony of Ken Fawcett a video technician who obtained an unedited feed of the one-sided gun battle which reportedly captured images of an "unidentified Davidian" who was seen "repeatedly calling for peace" from a lower story doorway only to be met by a "hail of gunfire." Fawcett also viewed footage showing wounded agents "being assisted by Branch Davidians in the stabilization and evacuation of wounded officers" – behavior he finds "inconsistent with persons having murderous intent." ("Why Waco?," Secret and Suppressed, Feral House, 1993).
Although Davidians fired back at ATF agents in self-defense, they were hardly prepared to ambush anyone much less engage in a sustained gun-battle with trained federal agents. "People were running around everywhere asking if anybody had any guns. Nobody had any handy. Most of what we had was new, still in the box" recounted a Davidian survivor to James L. Pate. ("What the Feds Don’t Want you to Know About Waco," Soldier of Fortune, October 1993). In the 1994 murder trial of 11 surviving Davidians, even the most compliant prosecution witnesses who agreed to testify against their co-religionists would not contradict defense arguments that the inhabitants of Mt. Carmel "were terrified of the raid and acted in self-defense."(Carol Moore, The Davidian Massacre, Legacy, 1995).
As the standoff ensued and the remaining Davidians were subjected to various methods of psychological warfare in order to force them out of their media-dubbed "compound," Kopel and Blackman glibly assert that the close-knit group "grew all the more convinced of the truth of Koresh’s prophecies." While religion certainly played a role in the lives of the desperate worshippers, this analysis fails to take into account the duplicitous role of corrupt FBI officials.
"Davidian’s were suspicious of the government’s intentions" writes Moore who points out that FBI promises to obtain medical assistance, allow the Davidians to retrieve the bodies of their dead, and send their children to relatives instead of Foster homes were all subsequently broken. Others feared that evidence of ATF malfeasance would be destroyed. The disappearance of the front door which would solve the controversy over who fired the first shot shows there was a great deal of validity to these concerns.
Addressing the final raid of April 19th, 1993, Kopel and Blackman allege that Davidians "faced a choice: a few final hours of suffering on earth, followed by an eternity in Heaven – or an eternity in Hell, for deserting their prophet in the moment of greatest crisis." The implication of this statement is clear: the Davidians had the means to escape but opted to remain inside in order to fulfill the wishes of their crazed spiritual leader. While the two authors correctly note that the injection of a lethal cocktail of CS gas and methylene chloride inadvertently killed several Davidians, they fail to mention other life-threatening hazards which may have blocked others from fleeing the smoke-filled building.
"The FBI’s use of tanks on April 19, 1993 evinced an extreme indifference to human life" remarks CATO Institute Legal Analyst Timothy Lynch. (No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident, Cato Institute, April 9, 2001). It is now believed that six children and three women perished due to these ill-advised demolition efforts. The trial testimony of Tarrant County Medical Examiner Dr. Nizaam Peerwani reveals that the nine corpses had no smoke in their lungs leading him to speculate that at least five of the children suffocated prior to the fire when a concrete ceiling caved in on them. Obviously many more were likely injured or possibly killed by these mountains of falling debris. Moreover, the tank destruction eliminated stairways, hallways, and ceilings in other rooms sowing mass confusion, stranding many, and blocking a number of once-viable exits with impenetrable chunks of fallen rubble.
The few who possessed the ability to escape from the deadly fire were further deterred by lethal FBI "ferret" rounds which were fired at Davidians by the hundreds. In fact, "newly released documents from the FBI show that agents asked for permission to shoot any unarmed Branch Davidians who left Mt. Carmel and approached their armored vehicles" notes Lynch. Although the request was denied no one can be sure these actions did not occur as the documents "outlined seven instances in which FBI agents threw or launched ‘flash bang’ grenades at Davidians who were exiting Mt. Carmel earlier in the standoff."
FBI Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) footage also provides documentary evidence that government forces were spraying the building with automatic weapon fire as the structure became engulfed in flames. Although the Bureau have repeatedly denied that its agents fired so much as a single shot during the stand off and its culmination, several examinations of the contested tape by no less than a half-dozen highly-credible experts dispute this contention.
In light of this contradictory information, it seems all the more unfathomable that two esteemed Libertarian thinkers like Kopel and Blackman would seek to resurrect the government’s indefensible "mass suicide" theory much less ATF claims that they were ambushed by trigger-happy religious fanatics. Nevertheless, these views cannot be reconciled with the facts as we know them. To the contrary, they stand in denial of all that we’ve learned.
Speaking of Waffen SS assault teams, I'm sure Danforth was "just doing his job", Rowdee. What a privilege to have public servants such as these who will stop at nothing to make the world safe for truth, justice and the "American Way".
I've studied this for several years, looking at it from both sides, and believe it was a deliberate show of strength and power by the Clintons, and they included Hubbel and Foster. Reno was nothing more than a fallguy (in her case, yes, guy) put out there to take blame, so the Clintons could hide behind her skirts. I find it nearly impossible that the fire began on the day Reno had a previously scheduled speech in Baltimore, leaving the Clintons running the show.
You might do a search on Danny Coulson, who was a former asst deputy director for the FBI; read his book, then learn how his feelings changed about who was complicit in how the fire was started--one Richard Rogers, cdr of the HRT at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. He had no authority to use the volatile gas canisters, nor did anyone else on site, but he is the one who gave the order. Who authorized him to change Reno's order that no flammable canisters would be used? Who was at the helm in Reno's absence? The Clintons, Hubbel and Foster.
Rogers is the one who should be dragged in, threatened with facing the charges alone; maybe that will convince him to tell where his orders originated. Rogers also changed the FBI Rules of Engagement as to when the agents could and should fire, again in both situations, RR and Waco. I believe he and Jeffrey Jamar were part of a rogue group of FBI agents who made their own rules, and have caused the appearance of a totally corrupt, gun-happy FBI. OTOH, many are gone, incl the criminal FBI counsel, Shapiro. Read up on Rogers, and you may change your mind. NBC's Dateline ran a segment with Danny Coulson (may be Colson) more than a year ago, and it was surprisingly candid, with Colson clearly having changed his mind from what was written in his book that generally absolved all Govt wrongdoing, and when asked "why", he said he'd asked other agents and then reached this conclusion. I have on tape, but have asked NBC to rerun, but not even a reply. With Weaver receiving $1M+ settlement, we know there was wrongdoing at RR, so why not Waco, too. If you haven't watched the Waco documentary tapes, that may also provide insight.
About Koresh. Pedophile? No, not in the true sense; he simply married these young women to have as many children as he believed God wanted. He may have been deranged, but IMO he believed in a literal translation of his Bible. The odd thing, when asked who told her of child abuse at Mount Carmel, Reno said "I can't remember".
Please understand I'm not asking you to take my word, rather suggesting you consider what I've written, do searches and read the multitude of articles written by credible journalists; then think about this, how Coulson publicly spoke out on this, naming Rogers as the one who changed the order on which type of gas was used, the fact he nor anyone else on site at Waco had the authority to change. Coulson had nothing to gain at that point, he was contradicting what he'd already written in his book, which I believe is "No Heroes".
Funny, isn't it....how both of them show up at Waco.
Rodgers/Rogers refused to testify to Congress, as I believe Lon did likewise....at least that SOB was being charged with manslaughter in Idaho.....Rodgers is just a bad assed character, a rogue, if you will.
How so? Danforth sticks with the claim that the FBI did not fire. The FLIR clearly shows they did.
Yea they got to retire with a pension and honors. Got medals for their actions at Waco. Couple of nice guys worthy of praise for their brave and honorable efforts to save us all from those evil Davidians.
Many, many crimes. The most obvious, and most undeniable, was failure to submit to federal authorities executing a warrant.
. Look, the law shows at my house, I let them in. Trooped flashes his lights at me on the highway, I pull over. All part of living in civil, law abiding society. What’s the hard part?
We read about this all the time, on a smaller scale…. Loser drug peddler is approached by police… loser drug peddler resists… loser drug peddler gets head busted while being forced to the ground.
Now, ACLU may have a problem with this scenario, but not me. That is what you get for being a deviant, lawbreaking scumbag.
The only difference between loser drug peddler and the branch Davidians is 1. there where a lot of them instead of one, and 2., the Davidians put their kids in harms way (inexcusable). And oh yeah…. The whole Koresh = Jesus think.. most drug users are too lucid for that J
Really, somebody tell me where I am wrong ?
PS... I really am open to suggestions here... lets have a discussion.
Totally beside the point... if there was a warrant, it should have been executed, and the subjects should have complied. If a false warrant was issued, that should have been a separate prosecution.
It is not up to every subject of a warrant to decide if the warrant is valid, no more than a citizen may decide if a law applies to himself or not. We cannot 'choose' which laws to obey.
You dont really believe that, do you? Many of the things I have read on FR have made me at least question my beliefs, and I like to think that I have made a few others think as well.
Thats why I come here, bro!
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts, to you all.
Are you indicating you're open on this? My recollection is that I prompted you on what laws Koresh broke. You said he broke laws. My question to you remains what laws did he break?
You have been completely taken in. There was no crime, there were no guns, there was nothing. Nothing but an eccentric Christian teaching eccentric theology to a few monastic believers (men and women) and their children...
You claim that the FLIR "clearly" shows that the FBI fired automatic weapons into the building.
By what methods did you identify the individual shooters?
By what means did you ascertain their targets?
dan
The FLIR flashes were outside the compound, where FBI were known to be, going into the building. Is there any other explanation for who generated the flashes that I have missed? (besides the sun)
By what means did you ascertain their targets?
What does it matter? They said they didn't fire. They did. The FBI lied and then Danforth lied too. That is simple to comprehend by anyone who sees it. I don't see what there is to argue about.
88 posted on 11/27/01 9:34 PM Pacific by Mike_Manske
You might begin by viewing McNulty's "Waco: Rules of Engagement", in which there are filmed telephone conversations between Koresh and Govt agents, as well as comments by the local sheriff about his contacts with Koresh over the years.
Were they stockpiling weapons? Not according to the locals, who have stated the Davidians bought guns needing repair, repaired and then sold, with the income one of their main sources of subsistence.
Exactly; and could have been served when the agents had pleasant conversations with Koresh during his trips to town.
People are also forgetting about the undercover agent, I believe his name is Rodriguez. During his testimony at a House hearing, he summarily testified *against* the agents present outside the compound--the agents were so surprised, a couple nearly suffered from whiplash. I'll have to look at my tape to tell exactly what he said, but he clearly believed that the Govt bears some responsibility on how the end came about; he appeared agonized while speaking about his recollection.
95 posted on 11/28/01 2:49 AM Pacific by Earn Your Vote
What I remember from the FLIR tapes, the flashes came from the armored vehicles, and probably were not manned by the FBI. What should have been clear to Danforth, the flashes were obviously not made by the sun as claimed. So, perhaps he asked the right question, but substitute xxxx for the FBI. Maybe this is one bit of needed info that Danforth now claims was not provided.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.