Many, many crimes. The most obvious, and most undeniable, was failure to submit to federal authorities executing a warrant.
. Look, the law shows at my house, I let them in. Trooped flashes his lights at me on the highway, I pull over. All part of living in civil, law abiding society. What’s the hard part?
We read about this all the time, on a smaller scale…. Loser drug peddler is approached by police… loser drug peddler resists… loser drug peddler gets head busted while being forced to the ground.
Now, ACLU may have a problem with this scenario, but not me. That is what you get for being a deviant, lawbreaking scumbag.
The only difference between loser drug peddler and the branch Davidians is 1. there where a lot of them instead of one, and 2., the Davidians put their kids in harms way (inexcusable). And oh yeah…. The whole Koresh = Jesus think.. most drug users are too lucid for that J
Really, somebody tell me where I am wrong ?
PS... I really am open to suggestions here... lets have a discussion.
88 posted on 11/27/01 9:34 PM Pacific by Mike_Manske
You might begin by viewing McNulty's "Waco: Rules of Engagement", in which there are filmed telephone conversations between Koresh and Govt agents, as well as comments by the local sheriff about his contacts with Koresh over the years.
Were they stockpiling weapons? Not according to the locals, who have stated the Davidians bought guns needing repair, repaired and then sold, with the income one of their main sources of subsistence.
MM, There was NO warrant at the site when the assault took place. It had been left at the "office". A few years before, some "former" Branch Davidians had assaulted the "compound" {home} with weapons also. Those who were perpetrating the assault were unidentified except for their say so on the spot.
There was NO need for the assault to take place. It was an exercise in fascism {"Grab 'em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow." perpetrated on the citizens of the U.S. of A. by the BATF. Lloyd Bentsen, who as head of the Treasury Department, headed the BATF should be in jail for the actions HIS team committed in HIS home state of Texas. Other than showing "America" what would happen to folks who had weapons in their houses, there is NO meaning to the way this assault took place. NONE!!!
And, NONE of the "investigations" even looked at this aspect. The end result of the BATF's decision to make the "no-knock" attack was tanks bashing holes in the sides of people's home and inserting gas into the residence of men women and children while some bozo on a loudspeaker was saying, "This is not an assault.", and the conflagration that was insured by the volatile nature of the compound used to insert the gas. In vapor form, the compound is extremely flammable, and any small fire would cause vaporization to occur, causing more fire, and more vaporization. A "snowball on the slope." if you will.
If ANY "citizen" made such horrible decisions that led to even one death, they would be liable for criminal negligence leading to death charges. NOTHING came from the establishmentarianist Democrats, OR Republicans. This was EVIL personified! Lloyd Bentsen! Peace and love, George.
I think you forget that Koresh opened the door to speak with the assault team and was shot. He was in no position to surrender after that.
Wait. Let's start from the beginning. You said that Koresh was a "looney" and "needed to be stopped".
"Needed to be stopped" - why? I wish to know why you think he "needed to be stopped", and for what. You can't use "didn't submit to a raid" as the reason why he "needed to be stopped". That would be silly, putting the cart before the horse. Was the raid justified? Yes, of course it was, if Koresh "needed to be stopped". The problem is, I asked you what for did he need to be stopped, and you come back with....failure to submit to the raid.
But why the raid in the first place, friend? Get my drift? You can't exactly make the claim that Koresh's pre-raid crime was running willy-nilly around Texas resisting government raids, because that's not true. And you can't exactly say that Koresh "needed to be stopped" from resisting a future raid, and use that to justify the raid itself, because that would be illogical.
It's like blind-siding a guy in a bar, then when he fights back, saying "see? I needed to hit him, because he was hitting me, so it was self-defense." It's illogical.
All that being said, then, as others have pointed out, it's not even clear that they did serve a warrant on Mount Carmel.
What is clear is that the people living there were faced with guys with guns approaching their home, who shot their dogs, didn't knock, and showed no badges.
Still think that in a free society a citizen is required to "submit" to such tactics? You seem to have the wrong impression of what kind of society we live in. America is not Nazi Germany, like it or not. "Submission" isn't exactly one of the paramount American principles.
That is what you get for being a deviant, lawbreaking scumbag.
Let's go through the chronology again. (1) Koresh may have failed to pay a firearms tax of a few hundred dollars. (2) Government plans out a raid, misrepresenting several facts ("drug lab") in order to get military help, etc. (3) Government raids, shooting the dogs and (some believe) firing at the front door (which is now missing, hmmm). (4) You call Koresh a "lawbreaking scumbag" for resisting the raid.
He had to be stopped (with a raid) for resisting the raid which the government had to do, because he was such a lawbreaking scumbag (i.e. the type of guy who could resist a raid)!
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Just think about why this is illogical. Hint: I could use this justification to kill you, right now. ("I had to kill him, because he resisted my effort to kill him, which shows he was violent towards me, so killing him was self-defense.") More importantly, the government could use this justification to raid anyone, anywhere, warrant or no. If they don't resist, great! And if they do resist, well then the raid was justified after all because anyone who would resist a raid is a "lawbreaking scumbag"!
Get it now? Just think about the type of society you are implicitly describing here, and the associated relationship between citizen and government. Nowhere in your description of things is the "rule of law" (which you pretended to care about earlier) to be found - because apparently you think the "rule of law" doesn't apply to government employees at all. Consequently, you are not describing a free society at all, and you are certainly not describing the U.S.
The whole Koresh = Jesus think.. most drug users are too lucid for that J
Most Freepers are too lucid to comprehend what you are trying to say here. Besides, as I've already written to another, Koresh did not "think he was Jesus Christ" or anything like that. That part is just a lie that many believe, one of many.
P.S. Hey man, you promised to tell me about the "Many, many crimes" of which Koresh was guilty, and so far all you have put forth is Resisting the Government Raid, which (to you) is enough reason to justify the raid in the first place. But what are all the other crimes of which he was guilty? Let me know....
1. You're analysis is paleolithic.
2. The BATF assaulted a church with children in it.(ndeniable and inexcusable)
3. The surviving Davidians deny outright the claim by you "The whole Koresh = Jesus. Course I guess you would know better than them.
4. You have much to learn before you are ready to discuss this issue.