Posted on 11/26/2001 9:33:39 AM PST by Aerial
Waco Lies Revisited
"I do not think the United States government is responsible because a bunch of religious fanatics decided to kill themselves…"
~ Bill Clinton, April 20, 1993
"It all goes back to Waco" has become a frequent rejoinder in Libertarian circles and there is much merit to this profound sentiment. To many, the 1993 FBI-Delta Force assault on Mt. Carmel has come to symbolize the malign potential of the lawless state. Further, the February BATF raid and its deadly aftermath graphically articulated the worst fears of those who oppose the lethal convergence of police and military. Yet in a recent National Review On-Line (NRO) essay penned by Libertarian scholars Paul H. Blackman and David Kopel, the historical significance of this tragic event is inexplicably discarded.
Entitled "Waco Lessons for War," the November 6th editorial ostensibly urges Pentagon strategists to taken into account the strident Islamic beliefs which characterize Muslim terror groups. However, in the process of dispensing this advice, the two authors inadvertently rely on some of the more spurious government claims about the Branch Davidian religious sect.
While the discriminating researcher would be hard-pressed to equate a largely pacifistic spiritual community with Afghanistan’s ruthless Taliban fighters, Blackman and Kopel make little distinction between the two. Indeed, the essay draws a parallel between the battle-hardened Afghan rebels and the Davidians who are described as yet another group "sincerely devoted to do evil." With this sweeping generalization, a diverse congregation which included musicians, Biblical scholars, Harvard graduates, religious seekers, mothers, children, and senior citizens is transformed into a malevolent band of religious warriors.
In fact, readers are informed that the February 28 BATF raid on Mt. Carmel was repulsed because the Branch Davidians allegedly "fought with the zeal of martyrs" causing the most "humiliating defeat" in the agency’s history.
Not only does this grossly mischaracterize the nature of the February raid, but the use of the term "defeat" is highly disingenuous. This wasn’t a confrontation between two equal military forces, but an agency of the federal government seeking to search a private residence and arrest one individual: David Koresh. Nevertheless, Blackman and Kopel portray the religious group as a unique military entity with its own faith-based esprit de corps.
The fact that Koresh and his followers were tipped off to the impending the raid and failed to give themselves up is submitted as further evidence that the allegedly "evil" Davidians "fully expected to be massacred at the hands of ‘Babylon’ (the American government)." Kopel and Blackman substantiate this by citing the testimony of "apostate Branch Davidians" and ATF agents.
However, the vindictive opinions of disaffected church members and self-serving ATF agents cannot be considered credible sources of information and it’s surprising that Blackman and Kopel would even entertain such a notion – especially in light of their extensive knowledge of this particular topic.
A cursory examination of the evidence indicates that if anyone was preparing for a violent confrontation it was ATF. In the weeks leading up to the blundered raid, agency officials were openly soliciting the assistance of military officials and the use of the Army Urban Terrain facility at Ft. Hood, TX. It is now known that these tactical preparations directly contradicted the express wishes of then US Attorney William Johnston who, according to the Treasury Department report "informed ATF early in the investigation that he would not authorize a search warrant" for the Davidian property "if it was to be executed through a siege-style operation."
Without debating the question of whether or nor the arrest of Koresh was warranted, it is certainly not difficult to surmise that his apprehension by federal law enforcement needn’t have cost any lives. Texas firearms dealer Henry McMahon has repeatedly testified that the sectarian leader was well aware he was under investigation for violating federal firearms statutes and willingly offered to cooperate with ATF agents. Moreover, federal officials have yet to make a good faith explanation as to why Koresh wasn’t taken into custody during his daily jogging sessions or frequent trips into town.
His conciliatory relationship with local law enforcement provides further proof that the dynamic-entry raid was largely unwarranted. Indeed, even as helicopters buzzed the sky in the tension-filled moments before the ATF arrived, Davidian Survivor Clive Doyle has testified that Koresh remained committed to resolving the matter peacefully. "He wanted everybody to remain calm, go back to their rooms, just stay cool" as "he would go down to the front door and talk" Doyle recalls. 911 transcripts of deceased Davdian Wayne Martin’s repeated requests for government agents to cease hostilities certainly undermine Kopel and Blackman’s assertion that the "Davidians intended to become martyrs and enter heaven":
Wayne Martin (WM): "Yeah there’s 75 men around our building and they’re shootin’ at us at Mt. Carmel!
911 Operator: Mt. Carmel?
WM: Yeah, tell em’ there’re women and children here and to call ‘em off!
911 Operator: I hear gunfire who is this?
WM: It’s Wayne!
911 Operator: Wayne…tell me what’s happening Wayne.
WM: We got women and children in danger.
911 Operator: Wayne?
WM: I’m under fire…tell ‘em to call if off!
911 Operator: What?
Wayne Martin: Tell em’ to pull back…I have the right to defend myself. They started firing first!
~ Excerpted from Waco: The Rules of Engagement,
1997, COPS Productions
As the 911 tape suggests, bringing an end to the shooting and protecting lives was a primary concern among members of the controversial religious community. This is reinforced by the testimony of Ken Fawcett a video technician who obtained an unedited feed of the one-sided gun battle which reportedly captured images of an "unidentified Davidian" who was seen "repeatedly calling for peace" from a lower story doorway only to be met by a "hail of gunfire." Fawcett also viewed footage showing wounded agents "being assisted by Branch Davidians in the stabilization and evacuation of wounded officers" – behavior he finds "inconsistent with persons having murderous intent." ("Why Waco?," Secret and Suppressed, Feral House, 1993).
Although Davidians fired back at ATF agents in self-defense, they were hardly prepared to ambush anyone much less engage in a sustained gun-battle with trained federal agents. "People were running around everywhere asking if anybody had any guns. Nobody had any handy. Most of what we had was new, still in the box" recounted a Davidian survivor to James L. Pate. ("What the Feds Don’t Want you to Know About Waco," Soldier of Fortune, October 1993). In the 1994 murder trial of 11 surviving Davidians, even the most compliant prosecution witnesses who agreed to testify against their co-religionists would not contradict defense arguments that the inhabitants of Mt. Carmel "were terrified of the raid and acted in self-defense."(Carol Moore, The Davidian Massacre, Legacy, 1995).
As the standoff ensued and the remaining Davidians were subjected to various methods of psychological warfare in order to force them out of their media-dubbed "compound," Kopel and Blackman glibly assert that the close-knit group "grew all the more convinced of the truth of Koresh’s prophecies." While religion certainly played a role in the lives of the desperate worshippers, this analysis fails to take into account the duplicitous role of corrupt FBI officials.
"Davidian’s were suspicious of the government’s intentions" writes Moore who points out that FBI promises to obtain medical assistance, allow the Davidians to retrieve the bodies of their dead, and send their children to relatives instead of Foster homes were all subsequently broken. Others feared that evidence of ATF malfeasance would be destroyed. The disappearance of the front door which would solve the controversy over who fired the first shot shows there was a great deal of validity to these concerns.
Addressing the final raid of April 19th, 1993, Kopel and Blackman allege that Davidians "faced a choice: a few final hours of suffering on earth, followed by an eternity in Heaven – or an eternity in Hell, for deserting their prophet in the moment of greatest crisis." The implication of this statement is clear: the Davidians had the means to escape but opted to remain inside in order to fulfill the wishes of their crazed spiritual leader. While the two authors correctly note that the injection of a lethal cocktail of CS gas and methylene chloride inadvertently killed several Davidians, they fail to mention other life-threatening hazards which may have blocked others from fleeing the smoke-filled building.
"The FBI’s use of tanks on April 19, 1993 evinced an extreme indifference to human life" remarks CATO Institute Legal Analyst Timothy Lynch. (No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident, Cato Institute, April 9, 2001). It is now believed that six children and three women perished due to these ill-advised demolition efforts. The trial testimony of Tarrant County Medical Examiner Dr. Nizaam Peerwani reveals that the nine corpses had no smoke in their lungs leading him to speculate that at least five of the children suffocated prior to the fire when a concrete ceiling caved in on them. Obviously many more were likely injured or possibly killed by these mountains of falling debris. Moreover, the tank destruction eliminated stairways, hallways, and ceilings in other rooms sowing mass confusion, stranding many, and blocking a number of once-viable exits with impenetrable chunks of fallen rubble.
The few who possessed the ability to escape from the deadly fire were further deterred by lethal FBI "ferret" rounds which were fired at Davidians by the hundreds. In fact, "newly released documents from the FBI show that agents asked for permission to shoot any unarmed Branch Davidians who left Mt. Carmel and approached their armored vehicles" notes Lynch. Although the request was denied no one can be sure these actions did not occur as the documents "outlined seven instances in which FBI agents threw or launched ‘flash bang’ grenades at Davidians who were exiting Mt. Carmel earlier in the standoff."
FBI Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) footage also provides documentary evidence that government forces were spraying the building with automatic weapon fire as the structure became engulfed in flames. Although the Bureau have repeatedly denied that its agents fired so much as a single shot during the stand off and its culmination, several examinations of the contested tape by no less than a half-dozen highly-credible experts dispute this contention.
In light of this contradictory information, it seems all the more unfathomable that two esteemed Libertarian thinkers like Kopel and Blackman would seek to resurrect the government’s indefensible "mass suicide" theory much less ATF claims that they were ambushed by trigger-happy religious fanatics. Nevertheless, these views cannot be reconciled with the facts as we know them. To the contrary, they stand in denial of all that we’ve learned.
MM, There was NO warrant at the site when the assault took place. It had been left at the "office". A few years before, some "former" Branch Davidians had assaulted the "compound" {home} with weapons also. Those who were perpetrating the assault were unidentified except for their say so on the spot.
There was NO need for the assault to take place. It was an exercise in fascism {"Grab 'em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow." perpetrated on the citizens of the U.S. of A. by the BATF. Lloyd Bentsen, who as head of the Treasury Department, headed the BATF should be in jail for the actions HIS team committed in HIS home state of Texas. Other than showing "America" what would happen to folks who had weapons in their houses, there is NO meaning to the way this assault took place. NONE!!!
And, NONE of the "investigations" even looked at this aspect. The end result of the BATF's decision to make the "no-knock" attack was tanks bashing holes in the sides of people's home and inserting gas into the residence of men women and children while some bozo on a loudspeaker was saying, "This is not an assault.", and the conflagration that was insured by the volatile nature of the compound used to insert the gas. In vapor form, the compound is extremely flammable, and any small fire would cause vaporization to occur, causing more fire, and more vaporization. A "snowball on the slope." if you will.
If ANY "citizen" made such horrible decisions that led to even one death, they would be liable for criminal negligence leading to death charges. NOTHING came from the establishmentarianist Democrats, OR Republicans. This was EVIL personified! Lloyd Bentsen! Peace and love, George.
Every time the FBI negotiators thought they had Jamar's agreement to a concession, Rogers would take Jamar up for a helicopter ride and he would change his mind. Rogers had his prey partially stolen from him at Ruby Ridge and he wasn't going to let it happen again.
I think you forget that Koresh opened the door to speak with the assault team and was shot. He was in no position to surrender after that.
Jamar was in charge and he thought nothing of lying. It was Rogers, though, who schemed for a tactical (as opposed to negotiated) solution.
BTW, I never believed there was no govt wrongdoing, I was just no fan of the Davidians.
What source are you using that shows that the FBI was "going into the building" at the time of the flashes? Please be specific.
You still haven't identified the individual shooters. You wrote that the FLIR "clearly showed that the FBI was firing into the back of the building, so I'll ask again. By what method did you clearly identify the shooters on the FLIR as being FBI agents and not, for example, Delta Force who was also present that day?
Why do you say, "besides the sun?"
What does it matter? They said they didn't fire. They did. The FBI lied and then Danforth lied too. That is simple to comprehend by anyone who sees it. I don't see what there is to argue about.
Naturally. The forensic evidence doesn't matter. We have the FLIR.
So according to you and McNulty, the magic bullets leave the FBI (whom are "clearly identified" on the FLIR) machine guns, pass right through the concrete walls of the pantry without leaving a mark and kill the people hiding inside the concrete pantry. Then the magic bullets disappear into thin air without a trace.
Perhaps you can answer this.
If the FBI was shooting the people leaving the building, then how did all the bodies get to where they were recovered?
You do know where they were recovered, right?
dan
110 posted on 11/28/01 9:35 AM Pacific by Mike_Manske
Nor am I. But, after reading so much about who was a part of Mt Carmel, as well as seeing/hearing well-educated people speak of him--here I go again, the documentary, I had a better understanding of Koresh.
Whatever his faults were, I do not see serious crimes, if any at all, committed, unless the fact that he had more than one wife is determined to be an undisclosed crime.
There are many people whose opinion I value, believe he asked for what he (they) got. Initially, that was my belief, but after reading so much over time, have changed my way of thinking. Reno? She was stupid to take the blame, but IMO she is guilty only of being stupid and a Clinton pawn.
Jamar was the FBI agent in charge of the Waco operation. Both the negotiating team and HRT were under his control although the negotiators seemed to be dealing directly with Washington. It was Jamar who refused to pass the Davidians offer to surrender to the Texas Rangers on to the Rangers and it was Jamar who told Koresh's attorney that he could have all the time he wanted to complete his manuscript.
This is not true.
Wait. Let's start from the beginning. You said that Koresh was a "looney" and "needed to be stopped".
"Needed to be stopped" - why? I wish to know why you think he "needed to be stopped", and for what. You can't use "didn't submit to a raid" as the reason why he "needed to be stopped". That would be silly, putting the cart before the horse. Was the raid justified? Yes, of course it was, if Koresh "needed to be stopped". The problem is, I asked you what for did he need to be stopped, and you come back with....failure to submit to the raid.
But why the raid in the first place, friend? Get my drift? You can't exactly make the claim that Koresh's pre-raid crime was running willy-nilly around Texas resisting government raids, because that's not true. And you can't exactly say that Koresh "needed to be stopped" from resisting a future raid, and use that to justify the raid itself, because that would be illogical.
It's like blind-siding a guy in a bar, then when he fights back, saying "see? I needed to hit him, because he was hitting me, so it was self-defense." It's illogical.
All that being said, then, as others have pointed out, it's not even clear that they did serve a warrant on Mount Carmel.
What is clear is that the people living there were faced with guys with guns approaching their home, who shot their dogs, didn't knock, and showed no badges.
Still think that in a free society a citizen is required to "submit" to such tactics? You seem to have the wrong impression of what kind of society we live in. America is not Nazi Germany, like it or not. "Submission" isn't exactly one of the paramount American principles.
That is what you get for being a deviant, lawbreaking scumbag.
Let's go through the chronology again. (1) Koresh may have failed to pay a firearms tax of a few hundred dollars. (2) Government plans out a raid, misrepresenting several facts ("drug lab") in order to get military help, etc. (3) Government raids, shooting the dogs and (some believe) firing at the front door (which is now missing, hmmm). (4) You call Koresh a "lawbreaking scumbag" for resisting the raid.
He had to be stopped (with a raid) for resisting the raid which the government had to do, because he was such a lawbreaking scumbag (i.e. the type of guy who could resist a raid)!
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Just think about why this is illogical. Hint: I could use this justification to kill you, right now. ("I had to kill him, because he resisted my effort to kill him, which shows he was violent towards me, so killing him was self-defense.") More importantly, the government could use this justification to raid anyone, anywhere, warrant or no. If they don't resist, great! And if they do resist, well then the raid was justified after all because anyone who would resist a raid is a "lawbreaking scumbag"!
Get it now? Just think about the type of society you are implicitly describing here, and the associated relationship between citizen and government. Nowhere in your description of things is the "rule of law" (which you pretended to care about earlier) to be found - because apparently you think the "rule of law" doesn't apply to government employees at all. Consequently, you are not describing a free society at all, and you are certainly not describing the U.S.
The whole Koresh = Jesus think.. most drug users are too lucid for that J
Most Freepers are too lucid to comprehend what you are trying to say here. Besides, as I've already written to another, Koresh did not "think he was Jesus Christ" or anything like that. That part is just a lie that many believe, one of many.
P.S. Hey man, you promised to tell me about the "Many, many crimes" of which Koresh was guilty, and so far all you have put forth is Resisting the Government Raid, which (to you) is enough reason to justify the raid in the first place. But what are all the other crimes of which he was guilty? Let me know....
First of all, is there an ignoramous amongst you who can name any laws that the Davidians were breaking at the time of the raid? Reality check: not once did anyone accuse Koresh of pedophelia until after the botched raid.
Even if they did break laws, why couldn't Koresh (or anyone else accused of possesing contraband for that matter) be arrested in a professional manner while he was out jogging or going to the market?
Much of the funding for the ATF depneds on what it steals from others and by attracting favorable press on themselves. The uninformed amongst us would not know that the ATF called the local press to cover the raid so they could attract favorable press to make their case for more funding.
I guess they realized it wasn't a John Wayne movie when several of their agents left their brains on the front lawn of the Davidian complex. That's when they politely asked the media to turn thier cameras off.
SWAT teams were first designed to counter dangerous criminals who were a direct threat to those around them. We've now devolved into raiding private citizens' homes with automatic weapons to collect contriband and settle custody disputes. I hope you guys don't vote.
And you should check your manners at the door before you start trying to be a smartass. These guys are trying to learn more about Waco, and there has been a civil discussion until you came along.
1. You're analysis is paleolithic.
2. The BATF assaulted a church with children in it.(ndeniable and inexcusable)
3. The surviving Davidians deny outright the claim by you "The whole Koresh = Jesus. Course I guess you would know better than them.
4. You have much to learn before you are ready to discuss this issue.
Uh, let me see if I can find in the following statements evidence of "trying to learn more about Waco" or a "civil discussion":
Your continued defense of this crazed, armed, meglomaniac pedophile undermines your positions (unless, of course, you are apologists for crazed, armed, meglomaniac pedophiles. - Mike_Manske
The only difference between loser drug peddler and the branch Davidians is 1. there where a lot of them instead of one, and 2., the Davidians put their kids in harms way (inexcusable). And oh yeah…. The whole Koresh = Jesus think.. most drug users are too lucid for that - Mike_Manske
These "facts" that other posters refer to are generally opinions and repeated lies. -History is truth
Nope didn't find anything civil or much "learning" about anything. All I saw was the same load of ill-informed misinformation that we've all heard for years. I stand by my statement.
If you think you can change some hearts and minds, God bless you and carry on, as people like yourself are needed. I for one tend to treat rude and uninformed people as they come off. I don't always have time to read through several hundred posts to find out if katze has worked his magic and converted an idiot poster.
I'll ignore your dopey "smartass" comment and just say that I wasn't "trying to be" anything. Undertrained, paramilitary civil servants bashing in citizens doors with automatic weapons happens to be a very important issue to me.
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