The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Proud2BAmerican]

And can you get those answers to my citation questions please? I'm assuming that you either have the texts handy or have access to the documents themselves via online?

[vmatt]

...are you going to vote?

If you don't mind I'll sit that out. I'm not comfortable voting on biblically related stuff and have never before even been asked. If you wish you can simply deduce my answer in what I have already stated elsewhere. No offense intended.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

There was obvious repentence and sorrow on the part of Peter. None from Judas.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL! Last week you were bragging about getting me started agin. Now you want me to go back to the barn:) Make up your mind. and BTW, I read the private reply to Big Mack.

Becky

[JHavard]

If you don't mind I'll sit that out. I'm not comfortable voting on biblically related stuff and have never before even been asked. If you wish you can simply deduce my answer in what I have already stated elsewhere. No offense intended.

I'll put you down as a definite "duh"

No problem VM but you may be interested to know that so far, 10 out of 11 say, Yes, God does know our outcome already, and my vote makes it 11 out of 12, FYI.

Thanks anyway

By the way Joyful Wisdom, if your lurking, and want to rethink your answer, the question is still open.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

And the saddest thing is that good Catholic folks everywhere will pray for your "learning curve" in Purgatory to be gentle and all of your Protestant friends will have abandoned you when you most need to be a part of the Communion of Saints

I usually try to avoid your's and Havoc's replies to each other, but it's a slow night and I read this one, and have a question? Am I misunderstanding, or is it just a dig at Havoc, or do you believe we "protestants" (how I hate that term) are going to be in purgatory?

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Please be sure to make it clear that a"yes" vote does not necessarily mean that they believe in predestination.

Becky

[JHavard]

LOL! Last week you were bragging about getting me started agin. Now you want me to go back to the barn:) Make up your mind. and BTW, I read the private reply to Big Mack. </i.

Jes chekkin (^g^)

BTW, did you know that the wives of the apostles were called epistles?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL, your screwy.

Becky

[JHavard]

Please be sure to make it clear that a"yes" vote does not necessarily mean that they believe in predestination.

I hadn't really thought about it being considered predestination, I'll have to think about that.Thanks Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The following important observations were made in 1851:

We cannot allow that every private Priest or member of the Church of Rome should give his own opinions merely as the standard of doctrine. We will have recourse to the oracular response of the Church, and insist that they be represented by themselves; not, however, by private individuals, but by their legal representatives. But, then, there is nothing which they dread so much as the testimony of their own Church....

IT IS A PRINCIPAL AIM OF ALL [ROMAN CATHOLIC] CONTROVERTISTS TO EMPLOY EVERY MODE OF EVASION IN ORDER TO DISCONCERT THEIR OPPOSERS. There is even a marked difference between the tone of these Romish Divines who speak dogmatically for the instruction of their own members and that of those who attempt to answer the objections of their antagonists. With the former, all is matter of downright certainty; with the latter, all is doubt, difficulty, subterfuge, and evasion. When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church; but when Protestants are to be confuted, the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority. Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved; Popes did not speak ex cathedra; Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors; and who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar? Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES, HE IS FREQUENTLY TOLD THAT HE IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCH (Charles Elliott, Delineation of Roman Catholicism, London: John Mason, 1851, p. 23).

Sounds like this guy had a vision of the Neverending Threads way back in 1851 :)

BigMack

[poet]

If you haven't already, read the first chapter of Revelation wherein Christ talks about the seven churches in existance at that time. Which description fits your church?

I am not making any judgements about any religion or church, just suggesting a good read.

[Iowegian]

OK, I just wanted to make sure that was what you meant. I think I've spent to much time conversing with RC's (that's why I had to ask). Put me in the YES column. Of course, God knows this.

[Iowegian]

Please be sure to make it clear that a"yes" vote does not necessarily mean that they believe in predestination.

So Becky, when the Bible uses the word "predestined" what does it mean if it doesn't mean predestined? The note in my Scofield Bible says this (among other things): "The Biblical truth of predestination raises difficult intellectual problems, but these cannot be escaped by rejecting predestination and affirming foreknowledge. For, if God foreknows all events, then they are just as certain as if they were predestined."

We cannot just dismiss the truth of Scripture ot of hand because we don't like the idea. Either you believe it all or you don't. I'm not trying to be harsh or difficult and I'm sure that I'll get flak from others here, but the Bible says it and we have to believe God's Word totally, not just the parts I want to believe. Do I have it all figured out? Certainly not, and anyone else who tells you that they do is blowing smoke IMO. Just something for you to cogitate on.

[JHavard]

but when Protestants are to be confuted, the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority. Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved; Popes did not speak ex cathedra; Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors; and who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar? Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is;

This is true, I did quite a bit of reading on "ex catherda", and their dosn't seem to be any imformation on what the popes have spoken ex cathedra. I did read one place that he had to be seated in the papal chair,but then that dosn't necessarily mean he is using his office for that purpose.

It boils down to the fact that you can't hold them to anything they say, because they reason, we are all catholic basher and haters, and anything they have to do to protect the Holy Catholic Church is for the good of Church.

Like James Carvell said, "It's A Wor brother, It's a wor" (^g^)

[JHavard]

The note in my Scofield Bible says this (among other things): "The Biblical truth of predestination raises difficult intellectual problems, but these cannot be escaped by rejecting predestination and affirming foreknowledge. For, if God foreknows all events, then they are just as certain as if they were predestined."

This from my Easton's BD,
Topics: Predestina'tion Text: This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events.

This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."

I can’t believe that it has taken me all these years to actually consider the ramifications of this. duh (^g^)

[Iowegian]

Question: Do you believe that cults, like JW's and Mormons are closer to the "sola Scriptura" rule of faith or the RC model of Scripture plus "church" authority and traditions? Consider carefully, this test will be graded.

Also open to anyone else who has an opinion. Thanks.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Havoc wrote: Well, let's see. The idea of people praying for each other doesn't bother me in the slightest and never has. It's your doctrine of talking to dead people in violation of God's laws that is a bother to me. Blasphemy has a tendancy to bring out a really bad side in me.

You wrote:Once again you speak from ignorance. Praying for the dead in Purgatory had nothing to do with praying with the "dead" saints in Heaven. Once again you confuse issues.

Dave, you misunterstood Havoc. Sometimes it seems like you "misunderstand" on purpose. You confused his whole post. Pay attention and try to understand.

[D-fendr]

Thank you very much for reply to my question of what focusing on assurance of your personal eternal salvation did for your spiritual practice:

"…if I had serious doubts about where I stood before God or were worried about losing my salvation if I sinned, it would absolutely destroy me. Having gone through that experience (of doubt) about 20 years ago, I remember all too well what it was like, and I do *not* know how I could deal with that again. It was horrible. I had no joy, I was depressed, I lost faith, I was afraid, I questioned the love of God, and I was totally focused on myself-----NOT a happy nor productive existence! I hope this answers your question."

What strikes me here is that when you were focused on the fear of losing it, you were totally focused on yourself -- "not a happy or productive existence!" as you put it.

I appreciate that answer because it infers that when you felt assurance again, you no longer totally focused on yourself. This, in my own experience is a good guide of spiritual condition: how much of our focus is on our well-being vs. that of others?

Do you see a bit of paradox there? Your experience was one I didn't expect or consider in asking the question.

For me, when I think or observe someone consumed, or focused, on their own personal assurance of eternal salvation, I observe one wrapped up in self and selfish reward – a near certain way to diminish in our conscious relationship with the divine. That is what has often turned me away from "believe and receive" preaching.

However, you've given an example of a flip side, and for that I'm very grateful - for your experience and for your relating it to me.

Thank you very much and best wishes…

[JHavard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that when a true Christian commits a bad action (one which would be considered a sin for a non-Christian who did the same) that in no way can it have been willful, and therefore it is not a sin. In other words, a true Christian cannot sin.

I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth and please correct me if I am.

No, you don't need corrected, this is how I am personally coming to see things now days, and today discussing the fact that God has chosen us since the foundations of the world, and now with predestination coming into the picture, it even makes more sense.

I was beginning to believe that it was just my age, when you get to the point that God has helped you conquer most of your dragons, and you are no longer fearful of loosing your salvation, that you begin to believe and understand 1 Jn 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I know that a lot of people seem to think that if you actually believed that you couldn't sin, you would let down your guard, and even sin more, but I don't think it works that way.

Have you ever obtained a goal, and then proceeded to even go farther because obtaining the goal was most of the battle, and once you had won, you had no inhibitions holding you back, like getting your second wind for the first time, and then not wanting to quit.

I really believe we are in the end times, and it was promised to us, that.........

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: V-18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: V-19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: