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The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)
Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams


Thread 162
TNS Archives


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; michaeldobbs
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Then Jesus was being sarcastic there? Do you think this kind of love is impossible?
24,561 posted on 02/06/2002 10:01:31 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: SoothingDave
No. You don't have to give "creedence" to any crazy belief that comes down the pike. What you have to do is give them consideration. You can't just say "well, the Bible doesn't say this, so it can't be true." Sorry. You can't. If the Bible clearly says otherwise, you can dismiss things as contrary to Scripture. But if the Bible is silent, you must at least give an idea the once over. Bottom line. The idea that Joseph was a widower is not contradicted by Scripture and is thusly plausible.

Well why not? Jesus visting America is exactly how Mormons justify their doctrine. They base it on when Jesus said he had "other flocks. What's abundantly clear is that they are not doctrine of scripture, but doctrine of men.

I don't know Hebrew, but I have a hard time believing that nobody knew whether you were talking about full brothers, half-brothers, cousins or anyhing else in Hebrew. Didn't JHavard have an example of the description of a cousin? Really? You can't imagine an extended family clan with women dying in childbirth, etc. and lots of cousins around and half brothers, etc.? I can. There is a Greek passage which uses the greek word for cousin. But that doesn't mean that other books were not taking the Hebrew word "Brother" and rendering it in Greek in an overly literal way.

Oh I can imagine the situation, but I can't imagine having no way to describe the orgin of individuals within it.

24,562 posted on 02/06/2002 10:03:29 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
#24458
About when Jesus was 12 years old . My sprculative impression of this is this: When a Jewish boy was 12, he was given a rite of passage or ceremony, acknowledging the fact . I heard that there is a part in the rite wherein the twelve year old says "Today, I am a man ."
IMHO, JUsus, knowing His mission decided to stsrt right then, discussing Scripture with the scholars in the temple . Since He was also human, Mary and Joseph had to let him know that He wasn't really "fully grown" and mature yet . So, He waet home with them and waited about 18 more years before "going public".
The above is just personal speculation .
24,563 posted on 02/06/2002 10:05:27 AM PST by dadwags
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain;Invincibly Ignorant
Its a hate thing they all try to label us with, just pick your label and watch out for the "rocks" :)

Hey. I'm not going to give your thoughts on Catholic history a whole lot of weight if you don't know your own. "Fundamentalist" is not a derogatory term in relation to Christian Fundamentalists. Their firm belief in their doctrine was what caused others to label the most stringent (or radical) believers of other religions to be labeled "fundamentalists" (like the "fundamentalist" wing of Islam, etc.) This is am insult to the people that invented the word.

Please note that the word 'fundamental' or 'fundamentalist' should not be confused with that of a militant religious fanatic or the like as is implied by the word in the media and elsewhere....What should be understood is the premise that there are essential doctrines of Christianity that should not in any way be set aside or tampered with, these doctrines are 'fundamental' to true Christianity. A fundamentalist in this sense of the word is one who upholds these doctrines without compromise.

A quick google search would have solved the problem. The first or second hit was this one. They make good reading. Give them a try.

24,564 posted on 02/06/2002 10:05:28 AM PST by IMRight
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To: SoothingDave
Indeed the magic of America is that we leave such things behind and an Irishman can marry an English girl. And a Greek a Turk, a French a German, etc. It's beautiful.

Any Kingston Trio fans out there?

The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much.

24,565 posted on 02/06/2002 10:05:39 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: IMRight
And please don't tell me there are "ultra liberal" fundamentalists? My head could explode just trying to think about it.

Better go take some asprin. :)

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BigMack

24,566 posted on 02/06/2002 10:05:57 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: DouglasKC
Well why not? Jesus visting America is exactly how Mormons justify their doctrine. They base it on when Jesus said he had "other flocks. What's abundantly clear is that they are not doctrine of scripture, but doctrine of men.

Fine. If the Bible doesn't say it, it can't possibly be true. Whatever. Don't make a distinction between what are fanciful claims that require more substantiation in history and archeology,etc. and a claim that is entirely plausible based upon the Bible's silence. Just stick to what is written and close your mind about anythign else.

SD

24,567 posted on 02/06/2002 10:07:51 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: DouglasKC
Oh I can imagine the situation, but I can't imagine having no way to describe the orgin of individuals within it.

We have the same problem in English. Lots of cultures can't understand how so many different family relationships are classified as "cousins". I have to have my wife explain to me what relation my own relatives have to me... "is that 'second cousin' or 'first cousin once removed' or what?"

24,568 posted on 02/06/2002 10:08:45 AM PST by IMRight
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
hocus pocus

Did you know that that term originated as a ridicule of the doctrine of Transubstantiation. It is a take off of the Latin "hoc est corpus meum" which means "this is my body"?

24,569 posted on 02/06/2002 10:11:20 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: trad_anglican
They're rioting in Africa
There's stife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
will be done by our fellow man

SD

24,570 posted on 02/06/2002 10:11:24 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Oh, my head is spinning. You had to give me that list just as I was geting over some nasty bug (don't tell Becky or OldReggie, they're being nice to me) and no "barf alert". I hope Jesus hurries up, we're all heading down the wrong road here. I thought only "American Catholics" Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists etc. had these types of problems. You guys were my last hope.
24,571 posted on 02/06/2002 10:13:49 AM PST by IMRight
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Its gone well beyond that now. You could even be labeled a fundy by some.

Yes, I see. Anyone who takes their religion seriously, whatever religion it is, and isn't "tolerant" of other peoples' "lifestyles" and choices is a fundamentalist. It has become a bad name to throw around, like "fascist."

I was referring more to the classical definition of the word to describe a type of Christian who attempts to go back to the "fundamentals" of the faith.

SD

24,572 posted on 02/06/2002 10:14:49 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Do you think God is more pleased with someone who wants to go to church or someone who is obligated?

I think that going when you don't want to but you know you should is more beneficial to the soul and I do think God is more pleased when that happens than when the person who doesn't want to go stays home. Similar to the no pain no gain concept. I think God expects his creatures to obey Him even when they'd rather do something else. Of course, if someone is truly following Him in the fullest extent, they would probably prefer to worship Him in His house every chance they had.

I don't think non-believers should go just to go or just to be seen. But anyone who is a Christian should go to church even when - make that especially when - they don't feel like it.

24,573 posted on 02/06/2002 10:19:50 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: SoothingDave; Woodkirk; IMRight; Havoc
This will be my last post on this particularly narrow subject as I feel like I am spitting in the wind.

Theo is a masculine word and as such CANNOT refer to Mary no matter how hard you make it try to fit. Repeat, the THEO is not translatable as goddess, only as god. Therefore, the flight of fancy (unsupported by any Greek scholar anywhere) in regards to the theological term "theotokos" is simply that, a flight of fancy. The primary meaning of the word is childbearing and it is only when used metaphorically that it means "interest." If you want to assert that Jesus is a "metaphorical" god, that would be an interesting new tack and course of study. The term is only used in reference to Mary and Jesus, Mary being the "tokos" and Jesus being the "theos." And I'm sure this will do a lot of good, but HERE'S A LINK. If you would like to argue that "mother of God" does not appear in the Bible, that is a completely legitimate argument and one that finds a certain resonance with me. However, do not twist a word or language or the theory of languages in general to try to make your point. Over and out.

24,574 posted on 02/06/2002 10:23:24 AM PST by the808bass
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To: trad_anglican;Invincibly Ignorant
I was rather spun around by you post. Particularly I think God expects his creatures to obey Him even when they'd rather do something else

I think that God is "more pleased" when He sees his children obeying Him and trying to grow up to be like Him.

I don't think that God is pleased when others "obey" him (even when they keep a comandment) because they are not His children.

I don't think God is pleased when His children disobey Him or "rebel".

24,575 posted on 02/06/2002 10:26:33 AM PST by IMRight
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To: the808bass; woodkirk; havoc; SoothingDave; IMRight
Thanks again, bass, for your research. I know I brought the term up, and I'm willing to debate, if people are interested, the appropriateness of referring to Mary as "Godbearer" or "Mother of God," but I will not debate the meaning of the honorific title Theotokos. Its been used in the Orthodox Church for over 1500 years to communicate a particular truth. I'll discuss the truth, but its not worth my time to try to respond to nonsensical allegations.

Christ Bless.

WS

24,576 posted on 02/06/2002 10:29:53 AM PST by Wordsmith
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To: the808bass
Oh. And I was having fun.

Well, I can rest assured that he will continue with his nonsense.

24,577 posted on 02/06/2002 10:32:33 AM PST by IMRight
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To: trad_anglican
I think that going when you don't want to but you know you should is more beneficial to the soul and I do think God is more pleased when that happens than when the person who doesn't want to go stays home. Similar to the no pain no gain concept. I think God expects his creatures to obey Him even when they'd rather do something else. Of course, if someone is truly following Him in the fullest extent, they would probably prefer to worship Him in His house every chance they had. I don't think non-believers should go just to go or just to be seen. But anyone who is a Christian should go to church even when - make that especially when - they don't feel like it.

Yup. I've certainly felt like not going before and but went ahead anyway. The Bible in Hebrews says not to forsake the gathering together. I've also missed on occasion but don't necessarily feel damned for it. Mostly if I'm sick or when it snows or something like that.

24,578 posted on 02/06/2002 10:33:47 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: angelo
As I said before, at m dad's request we do not talk about religion at all. Before the request was made Mack aske him once if he thought he would go to heaven when he died. He said he hoped so, that he was a pretty good guy and gave money. Does that sound like trusting the in Jesus to you?:(

Besides I am beginning to see that from these threads my family believe the ritual is what saves them. I don't believe there is any heart knowledge of Jesus Christ. They are devout in the ritual, going to church never miss, communion, penance etc. But they don't have a clue about what some of these people on here say that all signifies. I don't blame the catholic church for that either, if that is what some think, we are each responsible for seeking the truth.

Becky

24,579 posted on 02/06/2002 10:36:00 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: trad_anglican
Did you know that that term originated as a ridicule of the doctrine of Transubstantiation. It is a take off of the Latin "hoc est corpus meum" which means "this is my body"?

Wow. I didn't know that. But gee, seems to fit perfectly. :-)

24,580 posted on 02/06/2002 10:36:31 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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